To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

Oh and StillScreaming - still really happy to have a look at your FB profile smile

I've changed my mind about you. What I'm willing to do is let Rat look at it, she seems nice and trustworthy. Will that do you?

YY, Positively. I'm in my 60's and I'm so thankful to everyone highlighting/ fighting this issue. I've signed the petition.

@ Falmer

What kind of incident do you mean? Do you mean someone being assaulted by someone pretending to be trans in a changing room or someone being uncomfortable about getting changed next to a trans woman?

Is Shon Faye wrong about Irish prisons too?

In the Republic of Ireland, where the self-recognition system has been in place for two years, prisons still consider natal sex and trans people can end up in the wrong prison.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/transgender-prisons-jessica-winfield-gender-recognition-act-a7940561.html

PlowerofScotland, I love you. Marry me and have my babies.

In other news: man and woman marry. Big deal.

If I say no, then I'm unreasonable. If I say yes, it means nothing.

What a hollow disingenuous coward you are

Don't have time to RTFT, but YADNBU, OP!

Don't know if it helps you Capn but I am now Facebook friends with someone who is indeed a real woman and certainly seems to be of the lesbian variety. She is also particularly beloved by baby seals (I hope that isn't too outing!).

@ jellyfrizz

No, she wrong about UK prisons being any different. If you read the report that Datum linked to, you will see that the Prison Service say, very clearly that they believe they have a cohort of prisoners who will claim to be trans for 'special privileges'. Those privileges include leaving the prison for hospital visits and, eventually getting access to women's prisons.

Their concerns are taken seriously, mentioned in the report and the report says that no one should be moved from a prison on the basis of a GRC alone.

It's not a special secret that prisoners lie, it's an acknowledged part of prison life. The Prison Servcice are well used to dealing with it and there is no reason to believe that their brains will collectively dribble our of their ears, at the sight of a gender recognition certificate.

No you haven't. That's another fib. You have no proof that it's 1% becasue there is no proof that it's 1%.

It's about 200-300 per year. Scale that up to the 14 years since 2004, and averaging about 3.5 thousand. Which is about 0.5% of the 650,000 trans people that is estimated.

I think that you enable an environment that allows trans women to be dehumanised. I think that you make women frightened. I think that you constantly thrown out worthless 'facts' and that makes me roll my eyes.

I don't think you are actually listening. Trans people not being dehumanised. As evidenced by the several trans-people who have posted on this very thread.

I'm more than happy to criticise transvestite fetishists who are jumping on the bandwagon. And I note you didn't answer my question, do you understand the difference?

The woman who refused a transwoman HCP was vilified. It's not up for question.

Your objections only make sense if you think it's about quantity. The number of people who will take advantage.

But when people raise actual incidents, not hypothetical issues, but real life scenarios, you dismiss them.

You keep saying it's sensationalist and scaremongering and demanding proof and when people give you proof you dismiss it as being unimportant.

Do you disagree that women are being silenced, for instance? Because I can give you masses of proof of that.

Or will you just dismiss it?

And you still haven't answered my question. All you have said is you want people to stop saying what they are saying.

What is it you actually want?

What rights do you want transpeople to have, that they don't already?

Stillscreaming did you miss PeanutButterSquash post?

If you think women should compete with transwomen does that mean you think we should just have mixed sex sports? Because men & women have physiological differences which are the reason behind single sex sports - a man with lowered testosterone does not become a woman so they retain many of their physical advantages.

I personally have no interest what so ever in people getting married unless I know them & I find the publicity surrounding public/celebrity weddings utterly bizarre.

She is also particularly beloved by baby seals (I hope that isn't too outing!).

We get a lot of baby seals here, they hide from the storm on the beach I walk my dog and he cries for them.

Well yes, PeanutButterSquash is. one of the people you are advocating for who disagrees with self ID.

Are they wrong too?

Stillscreaming, Incident: Anything from leering, sexual comments to assault/ rape. Who by?: A predatory male pretending to be a transwoman. And women having to get changed alongside someone with a penis when they don't want to.

There's a lot of sealions where I live. Distressing

Datuns fairly basic calculation is probably the closest thing to actual verified statistics we have. But then it also depends how you define trans. I'd define it as someone who has or is working towards changing gender + obtaining a GRC asap.
That's clearly not the case if 99%+ don't have them, especially as you can view the total applications per year online and it isn't generally that much. So what is trans?
Agp and other fetishists?
Gender queer/fluid/flexible/nonbinary?
Transvestite?
Someone who has gender disphoria but hasnt told anyone and isn't working toward transitioning but may one day? I don't expect anyone to have much as an answer - as far as I'm aware there is no clear cut definition unfortunately.

@CapnHaddock

You read a webpage and that makes you an expert on Mermaids? Perhaps you should apply for Mastermind with that as your specialist subject.

Another one here sick to the back teeth of the 'feminist' tirade against trans.

Makes me question whether I'm a feminist at all.

It's got to the point where I can't even look at the threads on MN because they make my blood boil - so well done on some positivity for a change.

(Still hates the DM and it's readers and all it stands for)

I expect @CapnHaddock has read this judgement, as I have. It's highly critical of Mermaids and in this case Mermaids was banned from further contact with the mother in the interests of the little boy in the case. Mermaids continued to refer to the boy as a girl in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

lifechangesforever

What is this tirade? I'm a transwoman and I frequent lots of trans threads - I've also started a couple of my own. I've never been exposed to a tirade of anything unless you count (reasoned and respectful) debate.

I actually encounter more nastiness, ignoring, sniping and general ignoring what I'm saying from those in favour of self ID and the merging of transwomen and women on all fronts (I'm anti self ID)

It's about 200-300 per year. Scale that up to the 14 years since 2004, and averaging about 3.5 thousand. Which is about 0.5% of the 650,000 trans people that is estimated.

There is so much wrong with that estimate. Firstly the 650k figure, trans people in the UK haven't been counted, we have no idea about the true number. Most of us can't agree on what a trans person is. Stonewall include loads of groups of people who would never want to change their gender, transvestites, cross dressers, etc.

Secondly, when the GRC was introduced, it allowed people who had transitioned in the proceeding 30 years or more to legally change their gender. Like with gay marriage, there was a huge influx, that then dropped off. You can't back count those figures, ignoring the 30 years of people who applied.

Transwomen and transmen already have human rights, as they should. They have the right to live as they choose and to be free from prejudice, discrimination and harm. What they do not have the right to do is "to claim membership of a sex to which they CATEGORICALLY DO NOT BELONG, if it comes at the expense of the original members of that sex being forced to cede their own rights to definition. That is not a human right. It should never be a human right to force others to falsely identify themselves for the benefit of another." (Anon). Women have the right to name ourselves women and females and to talk about our lives, our experiences and our bodies. Transwomen can take hormones, they can have surgery. They will always be male. Likewise, transmen will always be female. It is impossible to change sex. That's just reality, not transphobia.

Ask yourself, why is all this only going one way? If transwomen really are women then transmen really are men. They should have male privilege. Why then, do transwomen dominate the movement? If transmen have male privilege why aren’t they the dominant voice?

Why aren't men's spaces being invaded? Why aren't men being told they're transphobic or bigoted for talking about their penises? Why isn't their language being changed? Why is the meaning of woman being changed but the meaning of man remains adult human male? Why is it ok to have men-only and transwomen-only groups and spaces but women-only is bigotry? Doesn't the fact that transwomen are famous for achievements in entertainment, business etc whilst transmen are famous for giving birth tell you something? We're not smashing gender roles but actually reinforcing them.

Why do you think we have same-sex spaces in the first place? It is for privacy and dignity as well as safety. Women are human beings, like men and we are allowed privacy and dignity in our private spaces, like men. There are also hundreds of cases of men taking advantage of gender identity laws in the US and Canada to harm women and children. How can we have a movement like MeToo, which shows how prevalent sexual violence against women is and then think it’s acceptable to let men into women’s private spaces? No one is suggesting every transwoman is a danger to women in segregated spaces. The presence of a male bodied person in a female only space makes women FEEL threatened. Women seeking shelter or a private space are entitled to not have to FEEL threatened in the place they are sheltering.

In Ireland, despite the gender identity law, men and women in prisons are still segregated by sex. Why? If you believe that transwomen and women should be separate in prisons but not elsewhere, why is this?

Transwomen say they’re scared to use male spaces because of the threat of male violence against them, usually from strangers. Women in abusive relationships are scared of their partner hitting or raping them. Heterosexual men have been attacked in toilets. The last one is pretty rare but it does happen. Why then, is it not the same when a woman says that she has the SAME fear of male bodied violence from a man who is a complete stranger to her in a female space? Men are the physically stronger sex. Who do you think would gain the upper hand in a struggle?

Why is it acceptable for a transwoman to feel uncomfortable being searched by a man at a club and request a woman? Never mind the fact that a woman may not want to search a man. But if a man follows a young girl into a changing room and undresses, and she is frightened, she is a bigot? What about Muslim women? Are they also bigots for not wanting to see men in their private spaces? What is happening here is not equality. One group is clearly more important than the other group.

Why is saying a woman is an adult human female dangerous? Why is speaking the truth dangerous?

If transwomen are the same as women, then why do they need the word trans? What are they transitioning from and how are they the same as women?

If a woman isn't an adult human female then what is a woman? No-one has provided any other definition of the word woman. So how do transwomen know they're women if they can't even define the word woman?

Makes me question whether I'm a feminist at all

I'd question that too if you aren't even trying to understand and engage with the issues we are talking about.

Peanut, please explain why you are a transwoman yet you are anti self ID. Pleeeeeease help them to understand.

@MorningsEleven

I can't speak for @CapnHaddock but as well as reading the official Mermaids website and marketing collateral I've also read their financial reports, the testimonies of many parents who approached them for support and found them wanting (again in terms of dis-information, adherence to NHS guidance, denying social contagion, effects of puberty blockers) or even obstructive if there was any suggestion of deviation from their "preferred" approach.

I've also read a shed load of posts on social media from senior figures in Mermaids where again, mis-information is touted with alarming regularity.

Feel free to read this - which has multiple links to source information wrt all relevant points.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/4thwavenow.com/2017/10/21/should-mermaids-be-permitted-to-influence-uk-public-policy-on-trans-kids/amp/