To put dd's names down for Scouts - DH thinks they are a "psuedo militaristic organisation that pledges allegiance to the monarchy and reinforces class divisions."

[morningpaper]

Well I thought that the Brownies and Scouts were okay but DH has objected that I have put their names down because they are "psuedo militaristic organisations that pledges allegiance to the monarchy and reinforces class divisions."

I told him they are probably full of working class Muslim eco-warrier children but he says no.

AIBU?

no, but neither is dh (sitting on fence emoticon). Perhaps there is a Woodcrraft Folk group near you- sounds like it would be more dh's thing. (Or you could put them down for Sea or Army Cadets, which really are militaristic, then Scouts would seem quite tame! )

That's what my parents said. Managed to argue my way into the Guides after we moved house, though - my mother thought it would help me to make friends.

I can't say I ever noticed any quasi-militaristic stuff going on, although we did swear allegiance to the Queen. Didn't bother me or affect my view of politics.

Are scouts uni-sex these days???

dd is in the brownies......I think dh has an historic point, but I suspect his position has been de-constructed by the advance of post-modern materialism. Or something like that.......

Woodcraft Folk

Sorry - very old fashioned view IMO.
DD & DS go to cubs & scouts and love it! They do so much they could not do otherwise - night hikes, building fires, camping - lots of camping and generally having so much fun. Useful stuff too like learning to cook, taking responsibility for others and themselves. There is a "military angle" in that there is a bit of bringing to order at the begining and end of a session but teaches them there are times to shut up and times to be rowdy. We don't do church parade as we are not religous.

I don't understand reinforcing class divisions - people from all walks of life at ours - working to upper, able bodied and not and lots of different backgrounds.

Really good for letting kids be kids.

Have you looked at Woodcraft Folk - that might be more what you are after?

I have a friend that runs scout/beaver/cubs groups and has recently written a history of his local scout movement.

From him I'd say

Yes the scouts have always been militaristic and will always contain part of that about them. I don't think you can deny that one sorry.

reinforces class divisions? Don't think so. Depends on the area the group is in as to the class makeup of the group. Friend has run at least one group that was paid for in a disadvantaged area where there was nothing else to do. Also in rural areas apparently there is sometimes no other groups or activities for children to join. I don't think class division is as much of an issue as it used to be.

Pledge allegience to the queen - yes I still think they do that.

I think he claims 2 out of the 3. Sorry.
I still think it is a good organisation now. Can you concentrate on the positive points.

Aren't Woodcarft folk just "pseudo-military........things" but without the shouting??

They are quite militaristic if you attend one of their ceremonies, it kind of takes you aback

the God thing does loom large as well

I thought it was just camping and making fire

Hmm the Woodcraft Folk look so cult-ish

Aren't they allowed to cut their hair?

Well I was a Brownie...and look at me now!
Had a Homemakers Badge for cooking buns and some other useful domestically competant task...and look at me now!
Whatever the effects, they won't last.

very funny title

My father was an Irish Republican, so the thought of any of us swearing an allegiance to the English crown was anathema..

and I must admit seeing my dd in her Rainbows uniform, aged 5, when it was something 'for fun' did repel me a little.

But taking the longer view...children have no such qualms - it's fun to them and whattheir friends do and there are benefits..so, chill a bit is my VHO.

Woodcraft folk, but would you have to hand knit his clothes from hemp and dried placentas????

It's probably quite nice for kids to do something that isn't a specific skill. Mucking in together rather than progressing through grades in ballet or belts in karate.

I remember being told that Hitler got the idea for Nazi Youth Groups from the Scouts but that's probably an urban myth.

This is not good, it looks like he Has A Point

curses

I think he does MP, but not the 'winning' one. If dd expessses a desire, then I'd go for it, albeit with reservations, and an indepth "de-programming" session after every meet up. Readings from Das Kapital would help......

Working class children who arn't educated enough to know about these things go to scouts/cubs and other dubious dib dib dib groups. Middle class children definatley shouldn't mix with any such groups that allow children to skid accross church hall polished floors on their knees and play "Pirates". The former is obviously socially deviant and the latter the mockery of a tragic part of history including rape, killing and such horrid acts.

He Has a Point

Also Scouts do Attract Strange Men As Leaders

I know you will all howl me down and say that your scout leader is a marvellous gentle chap and your brother is a scout leader and wouldn't hurt a fly.... but it won't change the bare cold fact that Scouts do attract dodgy men much like boys boarding prep schools do.

but if you are talking about brownies then I remove my objection to the adults that work with them.

Brownie leaders are the sort of women who in previous times would have been stalwarts of the WI. Completely different kettle of fish. You still have god and the queen in there though, can't avoid that

I'm afraid I side with your dh (though not sure about the class thing) - think there's also a religious element to it too (which put me off even more) - sorry!

PPH - in our troop the majority of leaders are women and the men are all fathers of boys in the pack and are all v normal

Howl, howl, howl, howl......PPH. No evidence that such chappies are disproportionately represented in offending. Just in the media as it is so juicy for them as a story......

I used to go to Venture SCouts - bloody brilliant, lots of mountaineering, underage drinking and snogging boys. However, I don't think that's the age group that you're asking after!

I used to desperately want to go to Brownies, and never went. As my parents are staunch Grauniad readers maybe they had similar concerns I'd personally say what the hell, surely going to Brownies can't hurt?!