to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

Are there things that you would like to change? You opinion probably has more value than mine

Before all this blew up, did you get enough support, was the process too harsh? At what times did you feel treated unfairly or subject to irrational hate?

But to give my opinion, reducing gender stereotypes might help then men can dress how they like whilst still being men for a start

I don't actually disagree with self ID, I just think its only appropriate for intersex people.

I think a GRC should only be available to transsexual people who have gender dysphoria, and undergo full surgery.

People who 'identify' as trans under the very inclusive trans umbrella should be fighting for a third, gender inclusive space or service.

Less gender stereotyping?

If a man likes dresses and wants to wear them for work, he should be protected in that right. Not to have to self identify as trans or whatever.

I agree
Work to get rid of gender and anyone can express themselves how they want
In the meantime get rid of the GRA
Mark sex on documents and gender if the individual wants it recorded
Single cubicle changing or single sex if not possible with a seperate cubicle for individuals who don't want to use male/female
Single sex prisons/refuge and so on
Seperate space in prisons for vulnerable persons. Not just trans. A feminine man could be more at risk than a burly TIM but trans seem happy to throw the rest of the population under a bus. Even the rest of LGBT

I'd be perfectly happy with a system self id-ing as "transwomen" or "transmen." A transwoman isn't a woman, but I've always been perfectly fine with calling them "she" and I don't really think of them as male gender. (Male sex, yes.)

I think the current system sounds like it's in line with that for many other medical conditions or mental health conditions to be honest. Women are used to intrusive questioning, painful/uncomfortable intimate examinations and long waits for everything from confirmation of pregnancy to breast cancer diagnosis, so I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy on here. For reasons of public safety, the previous identities of trans identified males should remain within the public domain.

Yep I agree with Lweji and others here. The problem is that gender exists at all.
Think about it, if you are biologically female, the rest of things like pink glittery shit when you are a child, dolls, prams, play kitchens, through to overwhelmingly female professions like nursing, primary school teaching, childcare - they are all things foisted on you as your destiny by a social construct.

I was won over on the no self ID thing but some MNers went swimming at a men only swimming session to 'prove' it was a bad thing, they didn't get any hassle at all.

So, if there's nothing to stop any of us popping into anything changing room we like at the moment, what's going to change with self ID?

Here's the link, it includes a fantastic swimming hat:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html#comments

I had no problem with transsexual men coming into female space in the past, as the number was incredibly low and they were respectful and discreet.

Unfortunately the current crop of trans activists means I have hardened my stance and am now only supportive of a strict male/female division and your birth sex is your sex, and therefore the male side of things is where you belong.

I believe that the division of male and female is enough. You are a male, who was surgically altered to be a facsimile of a female, you are not actually a female.

I think leaving things as they are would be safest for everyone.

And whilst I can understand having a passport in someone's 'new' sex, I think a birth certificate should record what someone was at birth, because that was a matter of fact, not opinion. Particularly now that gay marriage is allowed, so there is no barrier to marriage if you have your original birth certificate.

But most of all, getting rid of gender stereotypes would surely solve the issue almost entirely. No one would feel they should be the opposite sex, because it would be no different from their current lifestyle anyway.

Gender stereotypes need burying with a stake through their heart somewhere inaccessible

Third spaces, frankly. Trans people probably need a whole unique set of support structures that may not even overlap with what natal women need. Transwomen are transwomen - women’s services may not provide what they need anyway.

And I agree with the op who said that her views have changed. Previously I’d have been very open minded and willing to compromise but the recent torrents of TRA abuse have changed my mind for good.

I think we also need people like you speak out.

And we need serious mainstream media debate.

Why can’t you be a man who dares to be yourself?

I don’t think there should be the ability to change your biological identifier in law unless you’re medically diagnosed as intersex.

I’ll call a person whatever they want to be called but the law should reflect the reality - born a male or a female.

Breakdown barriers in different ways. Be authentic.

And whilst I can understand having a passport in someone's 'new' sex, I think a birth certificate should record what someone was at birth, because that was a matter of fact, not opinion.

I can't see what difference that would make to anyone except the person who's birth certificate it is.

I'd get me wrong, I'm quite the feminist but I've never been oppressed by an 'm' or an 'f' in a box on a document I never see.

I think that Jaycee explained that the original entry isn't changed, geologists of the future will still get everyone's birth sex and I don't see any other issues.

What are the other issues?

I agree with others. I think gender stereotypes should go. People should just be the person they are and not worry about whether or not that conforms to current societal expectations of their sex.

OP do you think the current system works? I’m against self id but I also don’t want to make life unnecessarily difficult for transmen and transwomen who frankly have a difficult enough journey already.
I do worry that the gender roles for boys and girls and ridiculously narrow at the moment and would like to see more acceptance that girls who like ‘boys’ stuff are still girls and vv.
More gender neutral spaces are needed too, in a cubicle who cares what bits your neighbour does or doesn’t have.
I also think that transmen and transwomen need their own special interest groups and lobbyists. Transwomen’s health and social issues will have some intersection with natal women’s but will not be the same and to represent both groups fairly they need to separate.
We can support each other and work together but we are different.

Ps I think once you have transitioned you should be allowed to change your sex on your passport and birth certificate.
Thinking as a data analyst though you would need to be able to keep the original sex in all government records so analysis of data across the population could be adjusted to look at natal only women when necessary. E.g. If you were doing reasearch into how a particular disease affects women you wouldn’t want to include transwomen in the data because the biology is different etc.

i'd like to make a sensible compassionate suggestion as i recognise the distress for someone with gender dysphoria going through this process - but I just feel if women are going to waiver their sex based protections based on biology the bar has to be really high.

OP do you think the current system works

I can only speak for myself - and some examples where a 3rd space might have been useful.During transition, I stopped using male changing rooms at the gym as HRT was having some very obvious changes and I was developing breasts. I didn't want to get changed into a swimming costume in such a male space. At the same time, I wasn't going to go to a female space as I would have felt uncomfortable there and I would have made women in there feel uncomfortable. The pool wouldn't have offered trans swimming sessions and I wasn't going to use a disabled space.

Luckily - the pool I use now has a communal village with cubicles and open showers where everyone keeps their swimming outfits on. There is also 2 private showers. A much better solution for lots of people.

I also had some treatment on the NHS (not related to being trans) . I woke up on a female ward - but then was transferred to a private room. I don't know why that happened as no one asked me - it was great to have my own space - but I was aware that it was a private room that could have been used for someone who needed it for isolation. Again - my presence on the female ward might well have made some of the women feel uncomfortable - but I would have felt very uncomfortable on a male ward. A 3rd space might have been useful - but how practical is that in a healthcare setting?

As far as getting rid of gender stereotypes goes, that would be great for those people who are restricted by gender and who do feel that they have to be transgender to get by. But I am not sure if that helps those people who feel it's more about their bodies than stereotypes.

I'd like us, as a society, to reject gender stereotypes en masse, and I'd like us to make a concerted effort to get rid of rules that reinforce them. For example, I'd like it to be illegal for employers to have different dress codes for men and for women. I hope we could change as a society enough that men or women could present how they like and do what they like without needing to (pretend to) change sex in order for that to be allowed.

More cautiously, and I wouldn't want to legislate for this, I'd like to see us, over time, move away from sex segregation where possible. New buildings should have toilets that are fully enclosed each with own basin, with no restrictions on who can use them. My local Victorian pool already has most of its changing facilities as family-sized cubicles for anyone and showers near the pool used by everyone. Maybe some sports that are currently split by sex might be better split by weight or height? I think some things will always need to be sex segregated, though, and other things will only be able to switch after big changes in society (example of the latter: I think there's still a case for some schools being single sex and I think that should mean sex not gender, but if all went well, in 100 years there might not be).

I pretty much agree with gamer

I think the present system seems to work quite well but could probably be tweaked slightly to make it simpler

A move towards a sex neutral 3rd space would be great, so individual cubicles for toilet and changing etc...i dont give a monkeys what loo i use, it would really depend on the queue whether i used the sex neutral one or the ladies

But yeah, getting rid of as much of this 'gender' crap as possible would be great

A third space in nhs settings could be done. All wards currently have male or female bays which change depending on the current casemix of who is admitted. It could be managed to flex a bay into a trans bay if the elective lists were managed correctly. It’s harder for emergency admissions but not impossible.

But I am not sure if that helps those people who feel it's more about their bodies than stereotypes.

You asked about self ID.

If your issue really is with your body then it's not enough to start calling yourself a woman, surely. (Not you as in you personally, OP)

As you stated regarding gym changing rooms, it does look like it helps to have less gender separation and boundaries.

Can we dig into this a bit?

As far as getting rid of gender stereotypes goes, that would be great for those people who are restricted by gender and who do feel that they have to be transgender to get by. But I am not sure if that helps those people who feel it's more about their bodies than stereotypes.

Do you mean, you think some people will have dysmorphia no matter what we do? There I agree - but it does make me angry to hear trans people complain about "gatekeeping" and having to wait for surgery, when I know people with disabling depression who can't get NHS treatment and others waiting for over a year in daily pain for surgery. Dysmorphia should be weighed against all other priorities, and, like them, treated in the most cost-effective way, not necessarily the way the patient demands.

Also, people who have hormonal or surgical treatment for dysmorphia have still not changed sex. Some professions may be closed to them as a consequence of their illness and its treatment, and that's OK. I can't work as a labourer or be a professional sportsperson because of my bad back. A man who had his penis removed or a woman who has a beard because she takes testosterone can't work in a woman's refuge, and probably can't be a professional sportsperson. Neither is anybody's fault, neither needs to be fixed.

Do you mean, you think some people will have dysmorphia no matter what we do

Yes.

I am not sure if anything needs to be 'fixed' at the moment - although the time taken was very very long - no doubt due to an increase in appointments - and I am not sure how many people who access the NHS to get an appointment eventually complete transition - or what stages they eventually end up on when they leave the care of the NHS.

Are things 'ok' as they are - I think they are.

The issue with self ID is that it seems that it's used by many who don't have body issues. Just gender issues.

I suppose, as most things in life, there's no perfect solution, but smoothing gender or even sex boundaries seems the most useful to me.