to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

There I agree - but it does make me angry to hear trans people complain about "gatekeeping" and having to wait for surgery, when I know people with disabling depression who can't get NHS treatment and others waiting for over a year in daily pain for surgery.

Everyone should be complaining about the aspect of treatment they are being denied due to NHS funding cuts.

We shouldn't be complaining that any group is making too much noise, about inadequate medical treatment, we should be asking why the rest of us aren't making more.

Trans services aren't a big part of the overall budget, the only figures I can find are from The Sun (!) and they claim it was 172 operations in 2014 and that there is a two year waiting list for gender clinic appointments for adults.

Everyone is being treated equally badly.

Do you mean, you think some people will have dysmorphia no matter what we do

Yep same here

I also agree that the mental health provision in this country needs to be much better and that the NHS needs to decide what it funds

A transwomen i know is having hair removal treatment on the NHs and that is excellent. My female friend who has to shave every morning is not entitled to the treatment as it is 'cosmetic'.

Its a lack of money issue i know...

It has crossed my mind reading the discussions in the last few days with Peanut and YetanotherTW that no one seems to have mentioned that around 99.9999% of women hate their bodies. Hence ever increasing cosmetic surgery, diets, hair removal, beauty treatments..... anything that changes our bodies.
How YetanotherTW can you separate the disgust and hate of your body with the (disgust and hate) that most women experience experience with their bodies that they accept and live with.

Yes, women, real women, can have lots of leg hair. We shave.
Leg hair doesn't make anyone male or female.
Not even face hair.

Or breasts, for that matter.

I think some honesty would be a good starting point. If you call yourself a woman then you need to have a vagina. If you still have a penis you are not a woman.

Yes, women, real women, can have lots of leg hair.

Sorry, by real women I mean what's behind the sanitised version that we present to the world, or magazine idealised.
Not as a put down to transwomen.

If you still have a penis you are not a woman.

Thing is, no matter what you do to it, a penis cannot become a vagina and an artificially created hole is not a vagina either.

A vagina is what you get if you are female.

Also, people who have hormonal or surgical treatment for dysmorphia have still not changed sex.

That is an absolute biological reality, there is no arguing with it whatsoever. I've got a neighbour with blocked Fallopian tubes, it's a biological reality that she can't conceive a child. Screaming 'barren' in her face every time I see her would be cruel and unnecessary.

I think that self id combined with changes to the Equality Act to devalue sex-segregation and replace it with gender identity as a protected characteristic (as opposed to the current gender reassignment) is the problem.

As mentioned in the five demands from A Women's Place, self id combined with a beefing up of the EA protection of biological sex for women would not be such a concern - although I fear we have already gone too far with refuges, all woman shortlists, Girl Guides etc getting "ahead of the law" (ie breaking the current law, the 2010 Equality Act).

Therefore I think the only option really is to dismantle gender norms. Make gender meaningless and sex meaningful.

Here are A Woman's Place's five, entirely sensible and common sense, demands

1. Respectful and evidence based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard;

1. The principle of women only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.

1. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow for single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice;

1. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women only services and spaces;

1. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay, and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

Screaming 'barren' in her face every time I see her would be cruel and unnecessary.

It would, but her demanding to access the maternity ward is unreasonable and that is the equivalent of what the current crop of TRAs is doing.

True, Stillscreaming, and of course I don't go up to men wearing dresses and make-up and scream "you're a man!" in their faces. I use preferred pronouns and all. In this conversation, though, I think what I said was relevant.

It would, but her demanding to access the maternity ward is unreasonable and that is the equivalent of what the current crop of TRAs is doing

Is the current situation reasonable in your view - the idea that once you get a GRC, the law sees you as a woman (except for the exemptions as outlined)

Although I am not sure how that is easy to police in everyday life as I've never been asked to show my certficate)

It would, but her demanding to access the maternity ward is unreasonable and that is the equivalent of what the current crop of TRAs is doing.

But that's not an issue is it? As a woman, not in established labour, I'm not allowed access to a maternity ward.

There are many problems with our maternity services, labouring women being pushed out of beds for non labouring anyone, isn't one of them and nor will any new legislation change that.

I can't think of any situations in which both:
a) it seems reasonable for the law to recognise a difference between men and women, and
b) a man who identifies as a woman should be treated by the law as a woman.

Seems to me that (b) is strong evidence against (a).

Does anyone have a favourite example where both (a) and (b) apply?

Here are A Woman's Place's five, entirely sensible and common sense, demands.

Those demands do seem reasonable enough but the problem is that the group proposing them aren't very reasonable. They had a meeting in the HoC hosted by David Davis MP, not the Brexit fella, the one who says that gay marriage is "barking mad" and that no parent wants a gay child. Their main speaker Shelia Jefferries, has written books about straight women not being allowed to have sex with men (see her Wikipedia page), other speakers included women who have been suspended from the Labour Party for threats of violence and harassment of trans people.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/15/anti-trans-activists-hit-out-at-parasitic-trans-people-at-event-in-parliament/

Is the current situation reasonable in your view - the idea that once you get a GRC, the law sees you as a woman (except for the exemptions as outlined)

It used to be. Not anymore.

labouring women being pushed out of beds for non labouring anyone, isn't one of them and nor will any new legislation change that.

Female victims of DV are being pushed out of shelters in favour of males.
Female athletes are being pushed out of teams in favour of males.
Female academics are being pushed out of scholarships in favour of males.
Females are being pushed out of awards in favour of males.

Males are demanding access to cervical screening services.

Although I am not sure how that is easy to police in everyday life as I've never been asked to show my certficate)

In my undoubtedly naive and trusting mind some one would only access those areas if they were a women or transwoman. So because they have a certificate they wouldnt need to show it because they have it

I have a medical exemption certificate which i never show when i pick up my prescriptions and have rarely been asked to show...so in my head it would be similar

But i know there are massive problems with my 'plan'

Males are taking womens roles in politics

Female victims of DV are being pushed out of shelters in favour of males.
Female athletes are being pushed out of teams in favour of males.
Female academics are being pushed out of scholarships in favour of males.
Females are being pushed out of awards in favour of males.

I've had this stuff shouted at me in other thread, when I ask for examples, I'm given examples of something happening once in America or a person with an unusual gender presentation taking one award out of fifty being presented.

It's a big world, there are some strange things going on but I don't see podiums at the Olympics being full of trans athletes, in fact I don't see a single trans athlete on an Olympic podium. I see that both Women's Aid and the Rape Crisis Centre saying that they are able to accomadate trans women and are willing to do so without any changes in the law.

While I do see infrequent examples of bad behaviour, I just don't this land grab that you're describing.

Yetanothertranswoman can I ask? Because it's something I struggle with.

How do you know that you are female if you weren't born/brought up as one?

What I mean is, there's biological sex, and there's gender, but surely gender is largely just cultural. I mean many of us don't fit into what is expected of our gender. But we should be free to dress and behave how we choose within the law, I can imagine it must be very difficult to be biologically male but to be feminine, but gender is really just a spectrum isn't it?

Personally I wouldn't want anyone to suffer and be unhappy if they feel they were born into the wrong biological sex, whether I believe this is possible or not. But aren't most people getting sex and gender confused?

This is where I have a huge problem with the self identification thing. Biologically males and females are different and this means that in certain circumstances we need segregated spaces. Sports for one example.

While I do see infrequent examples of bad behaviour, I just don't this land grab that you're describing

Cause you're not paying attention then.

I am and it is what has turned me from accepting of transsexual people into total opposition to any kind of "sex change" laws that ignore basica biological reality.

StillScreaming that meeting was held by We Need to Talk UK, not A Woman's Place. In fact A Woman's Place have publicly distanced themselves from it.

I believe the cancelled meeting at Millwall was A Woman's Place (after Millwall received abuse for agreeing to hold it, which rather shows the oppression of free speech argument is valid). The reporting suggests it's all one big anti-trans conspiracy but in fact there are multiple groups and individuals with different thoughts and feelings. That doesn't make such a good narrative though.

They had a meeting in the HoC hosted by David Davis MP, not the Brexit fella, the one who says that gay marriage is "barking mad" and that no parent wants a gay child.

Given how homophobia and particularly lesbophobia (cotton ceiling) seems at the heart of a lot of trans-ideology, it is perhaps surprising that David Davies is the only MP offering to listen to women. However, the big fear for MPs is that they'll be labelled transphobic or bigoted for listening to women. Maybe David Davies doesn't give a shit about saying the right thing or appealing to the yoof?

In seriousness it is a great problem that gender critical feminists are lumped in with old fashioned right wingers but unfortunately there is a need to find influential allies.

The meeting was originally at Millwall FC who called it off due to unprecedented threats and complaints with the explicit aim of stifling this debate.

Their main speaker Shelia Jefferries, has written books about straight women not being allowed to have sex with men (see her Wikipedia page)

Yes SJ has some unusual views, but as a Professor of political science are her opinions on this issue not incredibly relevant and interesting?

other speakers included women who have been suspended from the Labour Party for threats of violence and harassment of trans people.

As well as transwomen.

Jennifer James was suspended for starting a fundraiser to challenge the opening of All women short lists to self identifying women in a move the Labour party has termed "ahead of" (ie breaking the current) laws.

Women are being silenced. This is not about toilets.