to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

Sorry, A Woman's Place weren't behind Millwall. My mistake.

StillScreaming that meeting was held by We Need to Talk UK, not A Woman's Place. In fact A Woman's Place have publicly distanced themselves from it.

Go and have a look in the feminist section, the membership crossover is almost total. They just have different names for their political wing and their provisional wing. It's a tactic that the IRA used to distance themselves from their more violent activities but it's just a name fudge, nothing more.

I believe the cancelled meeting at Millwall was A Woman's Place (after Millwall received abuse for agreeing to hold it, which rather shows the oppression of free speech argument is valid).

No, the right to free speech and anyone having a responsibility to host that speech, are different issues.

A good example of this is that I can say what I want, within the law, on the street but Mumsnet have no responsibility to host what I say. Millwall said that they didn't want to 'get caught up in the drama' and they had every right to say that.

I too think honesty would resolve a lot.

Born male = male, and always will be despite cosmetic procedures to change appearance
Born female = female, and always will be despite cosmetic procedures to change appearance

These are facts. Biological facts that cannot and will not change, because TIMs will still get male related illnesses and TIFs will still get female related illnesses. Biology.

A third space for those who wish to use them for whatever reason would be the best solution for all. And it is fairly easily implemented if you think of all the current ££ being spent on right-on training, leaflets, campaigns etc. Plough that money into third spaces, job done.

I agree that, in an ideal future utopia, the removal of gender stereotypes would solve a large proportion of the problems. I don't think we should remove the concept of gender altogether though as, societally driven or not, most people do derive some of their sense of identity through it - I think? Or maybe we don't, I don't know. I just know that I could never question my femaleness - but maybe that's just a sex identifier, not a gender one.

For now, in the current world, I think the current system you describe, OP, is quite a good one. It allows people with genuine sex dysphoria to find a way to live their lives but is lengthy and intrusive enough to mean that only those who are serious about it will go through with it.

To be honest though, I am not convinced helping people to go as far as they can towards a biological impossibility is a good use of funding. I know it's controversial to draw parallels with other MH issues and maybe I am transphobic, I don't know. But I do see gender and sex dysphoria as mental health conditions.

To draw an analogy which works in my head (but maybe not in practice) - I have anorexia. Although expensive, I think it's right that I should be able to access NHS treatment to help me address body image, body dysphoria, gain weight, anxiety, find coping mechanisms etc. I do not think I should be able to access NHS treatment to weight loss aids, weight loss diet advice, liposuction, plastic surgery etc.

In the same way I think someone with gendery or sex dysphoria should be able to access NHS treatment to help them address self esteem, bosy image, identity, dysphoria, depression, anxiety etc. I am not convinced they should be able to access NHS treatment to physically or chemically alter their bodies. II'm not sure it's the best way forward to treat it in such a different way to how other mental health conditions would be treated (ie give what the patient feels will fix them rather than treat the issues behind the problem)

stillscreaming I guess reading around the issues with a critical eye is key.

Pink News along with the Guardian have shown their true colours over this imo, throwing kids and women, especially lesbians, under a bus in the name of "progressiveness" and revealing themselves as misogynistic.

There is no concrete way of distinguishing at real "transwoman" from a bloke in a frock.

In my view we should abolish the GRC and the GRA. People cannot change sex. This is not cruel or unfair, it is the truth and we should not be basing laws on untruths.

Trans identifying people with mental health issues should be able to access appropriate treatment.

Trans identifying people should have the same rights as everyone else, and like everyone have the right to create their own spaces etc.

However this legal fiction of being able to change sex must be dropped.

A TIM or TIF should be able to have whatever name they like, dress however they like etc. However they should not become legally of the opposite sex, and where sex-segragated spaces exist they should not be allowed to use spaces that are not for their sex.

@ SweetheartNecklin

As a lesbian, I'm not reassured to hear that both sides have homophobic elements or support and, a woman, I'm not reassured to hear that either side is telling women who they have to have sex with.

I wasn't referring to Jennifer James, we both know that a number of the speaker have been suspended from the Labour Party for harassment and threats of violence, not simple ideological differences over the All Women Shortlists.

in my opinion you should not be able to be classed as a gender unless you have the tools to match.
If you want to be FTM or MTF then you should only be classed as such after you’ve had the surgery.

Self ID is dangerous, for everyone.

@Mrswoollyfromwoollylane
Yetanothertranswoman can I ask? Because it's something I struggle with.

How do you know that you are female if you weren't born/brought up as one?

The thing is the OP has not once said they are female or referred themselves to a woman - username says transwoman which is accurate. I think this where the waters murky. People (imo from the ones that have had surgery, both ways as in female and male) know they are not actually female/male. But take the steps to make them feel as closely as that way possible because it's how they feel. It's the latest trend of people putting on clothes and shouting loudly that they must be perceived as female/male by law because it's how they feel.

Stillscreaming it was not meant to reassure you. Obviously given the context I was trying to show another side that Pink News will not cover.

Obviously I think what DD has said about gay children is abhorrent. He voted against gay marriage ffs. I wish gender critical groups had not felt the need to ally themselves to him. It makes me question my own views.

Having since Googled I have seen it was two other former Labour party members. There is one former women's officer, Anne Ruzylo, who I (and the rest of her CLP who resigned in solidarity) feel was unfairly harrassed by certain individuals with an agenda but, yes, neither of the speakers were JJ and sorry for the confusion. Labour haven't exactly covered themselves jn glory over this, though.

Go and have a look in the feminist section, the membership crossover is almost total. They just have different names for their political wing and their provisional wing. It's a tactic that the IRA used to distance themselves from their more violent activities but it's just a name fudge, nothing more.

This is nonsense. A Woman's Place was set up by a group of socialist feminists and has focussed on single sex spaces and finding a political compromise which doesn't disadvantage women, while We Need to Talk (and the Speakers Corner event it evolved from) has always been more about platforming radical feminist speakers and has a more uncompromising stance. There is some overlap in membership because women protesting this want to be involved on as many fronts as possible.

You sound like a TRA.

*There is no concrete way of distinguishing at real "transwoman" from a bloke in a frock.

In my view we should abolish the GRC and the GRA. People cannot change sex. This is not cruel or unfair, it is the truth and we should not be basing laws on untruths.*

We do, we have doctors. Before anyone can obtain a gender recognition certificate they have to get approval from a Consultant Psychiatrist who specialises in the treatment of gender disorders.

The entire worldwide medical community recognises these disorders and approves their treatment.

There are a whole host of mental health disorders that the ignorant and beligerant could dismiss out of hand, 'anorexics just need to eat something', people with depression just need to 'pull themselves together' but anyone with a smidgen of sense knows that the human mind is a bit more complicated than that and that doctors are the right people to deal with these things.

I wasn't referring to Jennifer James, we both know that a number of the speaker have been suspended from the Labour Party for harassment and threats of violence, not simple ideological differences over the All Women Shortlists.

Who would that be?

We do, we have doctors. Before anyone can obtain a gender recognition certificate they have to get approval from a Consultant Psychiatrist who specialises in the treatment of gender disorders.

That has no bearing on the opinion that the GRA should be repealed. An opinion I share.

There is some overlap in membership because women protesting this want to be involved on as many fronts as possible.

You call it some overlap, I call it almost total overlap, women are quite capable of looking in the feminist sections and seeing all the same names associated with both groups.

The groups are headed up by different people, as, modelled by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness but that they are two factions of the same organisation is plain to see to anyone who looks.

You sound like a TRA.

What does that mean?

Also, I strongly doubt this:
The entire worldwide medical community recognises these disorders and approves their treatment.
Doctors sometimes have to keep quiet about their views, and have considerable freedom to specialise so as to minimise the number of occasions on which they have to.

Nobody's given me a "both (a) and (b)" example yet. Does that mean nobody has one? That would be good: it would mean we're agreed that the law should be gender- (but not sex-) blind, and we can go ahead and repeal the GRA.

It means that I perceive you are arguing from a particular biased viewpoint and aiming to discredit women's activism against the GRA. That's all. Like the difference between the "reasonable" "concerned intersectional feminist" wing of transactivism and the militant violence inciting one, to use your own comparison.

That has no bearing on the opinion that the GRA should be repealed. An opinion I share.

If you now want a 13 years old piece of legislation repealed, you have every right to that opinion but don't pretend that this campaign is about stopping new laws. Don't pretend to women signing your petition, in good faith, that this is about new legislation.

If you want rip up the protections of trans women, who have been deemed suitable for gender reassignment surgery by consultant psychiatrists, have undergone that surgery and who have been getting on with their lives for the last 13 years, be clear on that and don't pretend this is about self ID.

You've shown that this is not about self ID.

Yeah, whatevs.

yetanothertranswoman, I just want MIT to stop assuming that they have the right to women and girls spaces. We have them because we want and need them. Whatever is going on in your life doesn't change that.

Oh, and I want more MIT to speak out about the use of puberty blockers on children.

And it's not actually my petition. Gender critical women are not an interchangeable hive mind.

Um, the whole point of this thread is that it's not about self-id. In answer to the opening question, I said (paraphrasing) I thought we should make the law more gender-blind. If we can make it completely gender-blind, we don't need the GRA. All completely relevant.

"Go and have a look in the feminist section, the membership crossover is almost total. They just have different names for their political wing and their provisional wing."

I think you're generalising on the basis of a limited evidence basis. In practice I suspect there are lots of feminists - like me - who support the Woman's Place approach but not anything more extreme.

I'm also not convinced about the Sinn Fein analogy; as far as I'm aware not even the most full-on TERFs have ever committed violence against transpeople or encouraged it.

Nobody's given me a "both (a) and (b)" example yet. Does that mean nobody has one? That would be good: it would mean we're agreed that the law should be gender- (but not sex-) blind, and we can go ahead and repeal the GRA.

I'll give you a both a. and b., the Gender Recognition Act of 2004; it both gives trans women legal protection for their gender reassignment status and allows for proportional exemptions.

I don't think anyone is dismissing mental health conditions, but the government are proposing that it isn't actually a mental health condition.

Also we don't treat anorexics by giving the an op or hormones to stay skinny or by helping them to control their food intake.