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to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

402 replies

yetanothertranswoman · 18/03/2018 09:13

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

OP posts:
Lovesagin · 18/03/2018 15:17

Mmmm. Context. How inconvenient.

Stillscreaming - those links? Ta.

Lovesagin · 18/03/2018 15:22

Links?

hearthwitch · 18/03/2018 15:25

Stillscreaming how dare you compare feminist debate and feminist groups to a terrorist organisation. As someone who grew up in N Ireland during the troubles I cannot believe that anyone could compare women non violently debating their rights to acts of terrorism. (Trying not to mention that there were terrorist organisations on both sides but BBC tended to have bias to one side and terrorism is always wrong). You have either just called all feminists /women terrorists or belittled the suffering of those affected by the events of the troubles or both.

PussyTrumpHat · 18/03/2018 15:25

It's good that you are clearly demonstrating that you affiliate with TRAs who scream TERF at women who want to meet and discuss without males present
They were trying to steal her camera, did you realise that
It amazes me how those who want to be part of the group know as women hate women

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/03/2018 15:26

yetanothertranswoman

What legal rights are refused?

Not trying to be funny, i thought that everyone had the same rights so i am obviously missing something

LostArt · 18/03/2018 15:30

yetanothertranswoman I don't think we can go back, because the GRA isn't fit for purpose. The majority of transpeople don't seek it, they can go about their business however they want without it.

It isn't good for women and girls either. I believe people are miss informed about the GRA and assume the TIM with a GRC have no penis, are on hormones and have been judged safe to about around women. Women also assume that any TIM in a hospital ward or is a HCP would automatically have a GRC, which is also not always true.

I believe women should give informed consent, and I don't think this can happen without an honest debate about the GRA and the current situation.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 15:34

It amazes me how those who want to be part of the group know as women hate women

I don't have any desire to be part of either of these groups. I think they're both extremists, I think they're ideologically flawed and they both suffer from extremely sloppy and lazy thinking.

However, only one side is claiming to speak for me, as a 'woman' and a 'feminist', so I'm making my disagreement clear.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 18/03/2018 15:35

"I understand that it lead to a lesser punishment for the person who attacked her."

Tara Wood, the "she wolf" (#freetheshewolf), hasn't been sentenced yet - have you come from the future?

Lovesagin · 18/03/2018 15:36

Hi stillscreaming, which members were suspended for threats of violence?

LadyLance · 18/03/2018 15:37

For me, I think a self-ID system with limitations would be best. I support people's right to express themselves however they want to and people should not be discriminated for presenting in a gender non-conforming way. If people felt having some formal recognition of this gave them extra protection, then having a way of IDing as a transwoman or a transman without too much bureaucracy could be a good thing.

I think people who feel trans and are over 18 should have access to NHS treatment, including hormones and surgery if they want them- as well as counseling services if they want those. I do think that surgery should not be provided completely on demand as it is a major procedure and might not be appropriate for some people. I do not think children should be able to access any form of drug treatment or surgery, but should be given counseling and support.

In statistics, I think trans people should be counted separately from others, especially when it comes to crime, and saying things like "we have x women in senior positions".

I do not think trans people should be allowed to participate in competitive sports where there is a safety or fairness issue. If there was enough demand, trans only events could be organised.

When it comes to prisons and shelters, if possible third spaces should be created for trans people. Transwomen should not be allowed to enter women only spaces in these cases.

With changing rooms, I think we have to move away from communal changing. It causes problems other than for trans people as well, and is basically used as a space saver for a lot of health clubs, gyms etc. I think it should be a requirement to provide cubicles, non-communal showers and family changing spaces that are not communal, and hopefully this would provide a suitable option for trans people.

With toilets, I think more unisex options should be provided- with floor to ceiling doors etc. However, single sex options should also be provided for those who's beliefs mean they do not want to share facilities.

Women should be allowed to retain spaces for discussing issues that only affect XX people with only other XX people.

For young people on overnight trips, there shouldn't be any sharing of sleeping spaces between people who might get each other pregnant- regardless of the gender they express themselves as. Trans students should be offered an appropriate third space/safe space to sleep. If changing for PE has to be communal then trans students should be offered a third space to change. Students should be allowed to wear whatever uniform items they prefer- everyone should be allowed to wear dresses/skirts if they are part of the uniform. If a student wants to wear a dress or tux to prom, that should be their choice, regardless of their sex. If sport is sex segregated in the school, I can see the arguments for trans students to be allowed to take part in non-contact sport with their chosen gender.

I can see that a lot of this is a bit exclusionary of trans people- I've said a lot about third spaces etc. However, I think we have to acknowledge that a transwoman is not a woman, and a transman is not a man. It is important for them to have a space where they can change and go to the toilet and feel safe. However, this cannot be at the expense of everyone else. I do accept this puts a lot of onus on businesses to make new spaces etc. However, I do think this is the best solution.

I also think it's good for young people to be able to experiment with gender expression without having to put a label on it.

PussyTrumpHat · 18/03/2018 15:38

Women are extremists
Just because they are women or just those with the sense to know a person cannot change sex.
Or just those who don't want males to decide what a woman is

Lovesagin · 18/03/2018 15:40

Actual lol beyond, I missed that comment!

"If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious shit"

BeyondDeadlySiren · 18/03/2018 15:40

Lost, the world in general is also not massively well informed on biology - they believe that a post op transperson is very close to their wanted sex, when they're really not.

They don't know about bone structure/density, hormones, strength and lung capacity. They don't understand mucosal cells of the vagina cannot be created from a penis. They're not informed on the differences in symptom presentation and medication action.

The general public are not always the best people to ask.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 15:43

...how dare you compare feminist debate and feminist groups to a terrorist organisation. As someone who grew up in N Ireland during the troubles I cannot believe that anyone could compare women non violently debating their rights to acts of terrorism.

I compared an organisational structure with another, in terms most people, would be familiar with. I've been painful specific with the accusations I've made.

I don't have an issue with any group peacefully protesting their aims or discussing those aims in a peaceful way. I do have an issue with a group pretending that they are seeking one thing while trying to slip in a bigger agenda.

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 15:45

but the narrative that a blameless 60 year old women was attacked, is inaccurate.

No it is not. And I'm wondering how you know the transactivist attempting to wrench the camera off her by force was a "teenager"? As far as I am aware only Tara Wood has been named?

BeyondDeadlySiren · 18/03/2018 15:46

Alternatively, even the people who are in both groups (often self categorising as "feminists" rather than just "women") could actually support both aims. Who'd have thunk it. 🙄

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 15:46

The person she was attacking didn't want to press charges because they were pretty horrified at how things had played out and felt that the attack was disproportionate.

A lot of knowledge here for someone with a general interest.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 15:48

Tara Wood, the "she wolf" (#freetheshewolf), hasn't been sentenced yet - have you come from the future?

I got that information from @Datum on another thread, I have been more careful with my sources for the rest of the post and I will double check her information in the future.

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 15:48

don't have an issue with any group peacefully protesting their aims or discussing those aims in a peaceful way.

But you clearly do.

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 15:49

got that information from @Datum on another thread, I have been more careful with my sources for the rest of the post and I will double check her information in the future.

I very much doubt @Datun gave you the wrong information. Do copy and paste.

Lovesagin · 18/03/2018 15:50

Hi stillscreaming, who was it that was suspended for threats of violence?

imnolaidee · 18/03/2018 15:55

I don't have an answer, but together we might find one. Firstly, thank you for coming on and saying you aren't in favour of self-ID.

I am no politician or policy maker, but I can see how using the self-ID card can only cause problems not solutions.

As a loving auntie of a TW who has also gone through the trauma of the full operation, I would like to think that women and trans people could work together to make sure we all have respect and equality in society. How we achieve that is the same way women have - to fight hard for it, over decades. And, to continue to fight to retain those fragile rights.

At the minute, a certain sector of the trans community are ruining it for all. Feminists have had to fight against this and in doing so are being demonised for trying to protect those rights we fought for. But, I, for one, would help to fight for trans rights in the same way I fought for feminism and anti-racism over the years.

The starting point is to not divide us by trying to replace us. A woman is a woman and a trans woman is a trans woman and both are equally valid and each have their own unique challenges.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 18/03/2018 15:55

@Datun you big fibber, why are you posting fake news?

Alternatively of course, that didn't happen

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 15:57

A lot of knowledge here for someone with a general interest.

I don't only have a general interest. I'm very interested indeed in the actions of any group who claim to speak for me. I'm a feminist activist of 30 years standing, I haven't just walked in off the street.

I know feminist activism. I know feminist politics. I'm reasonable well versed in the source material and theory. I've worked with victims of domestic violence, former prisoners and sex workers wishing to leave their way of life.

I have a history in women's politics and while I don't think that makes my views more important than anyone else's, my view aren't less important either.

PencilsInSpace · 18/03/2018 15:59

Who was it that was suspended for threats of violence, Stillscreaming?

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