Who is being unreasonable - joint finances

[namechange59295]

Namechanged for this but regular poster.

Please help me work out whether I am being unreasonable, or whether my husband is being unreasonable (I think he is, obviously!).

I'll try to make his as succinct as possible. Been with my DH for 8 years, married for 18 months, DS1 is 7.5 months. DH bought the house we live in when we had been together for 2 years, large cash deposit, small mortgage. I moved in and paid a reduced rent until the mortgage was cleared (approx. 3 years). I have then lived there for free ever since. The justification for this which we both agreed to was that I had to move around an hour from my friends, family and work to allow him to continue to run his business, which would obviously benefit us both in the future. His friends, family and hobbies are on his doorstep (literally, we can see his parents house and the rugby field from our windows!). I hate the town we live in, but we plan to move out of town in the next couple of years and as I have made lots of friends in the wider area I am happy with this prospect, although ultimately I would prefer to move back to where I grew up and where my family are.

So, mortgage is paid off and we both have significant savings, however he has about 3 times what I have. I believe his ability to save has been partly facilitated by me because by moving to his area I have allowed our relationship to continue and him to pursue his professional desires. Of course he has also saved very hard and worked very hard for that money. I have explained this part of our financial situation not to be goady, but I don't want to drip feed and I do think this is relevant to my AIBU.

Since moving in together we have paid into a joint account for food, bills, council tax etc etc. Basically everything that's needed to keep the house running. I have just stopped receiving maternity pay but have been paying in as normal until now. Agreement is that I will stay at home with DS1 because my commute to work means I would work for about £25 per day once we have paid for childcare. We have always been of the understanding that we would both prefer for me to be at home with the children for a certain amount of time whilst they are young and that was a large part of the reason we have settled in DH's area. All discussed and agreed years ago.

I do all of the housework, so cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing, food shopping, bins, recycling, night feeds etc. plus all those other little things like buying birthday presents, cards etc. He does bath and bed with DS 5 nights a week. He plays rugby twice a week and all day on a Saturday, with the occasional night out afterwards (not regular, say once every 2 months or so). He has a lie in at the weekend on both days while I get up with DS.

I have always said that I would prefer our savings to be held jointly, with a direct debit into an account for household stuff and then an equal allowance each for spending money. He has always said that he will just top up our existing joint account as needed. We are both relatively good with money so whilst I'm not really comfortable with this, in theory it should work as long as we are both reasonable.

With regards to our savings, we are both saving for a property investment, so in that sense our intentions for the savings are mutual. He obviously has a great deal more than I do at present, but my parents will be giving us a significant (approx £175k) sum to purchase said property when we find it so he will then benefit from my/their investment. Basically what I am trying to say is that we are on a fairly level playing field once all is taken into consideration.

Fast forward to today. We are looking after his parents dog for a few days while they are away. I took her for a run on the beach this morning and it was lovely down there so I bought a coffee in the cafe and sat outside for a bit longer. The coffee cost £1.50. DH has told me that I should take my own coffee in a flask because buying a coffee out is a waste of money. He says that if I was out for a walk with a friend and we went into the coffee shop that's fine because it's being sociable. I think that considering he disappears for 2 evenings a week plus most of Saturday week in week out (and there is a cost of say £20 a week for this) I should be allowed to buy a bloody coffee every now and then if I want one! I'm not one of these people who walks around with a costa permanently attached to my hand, I hardly ever buy drinks or food out. My social commitments are a buggy fitness group once or twice a week (£4 a time), baby sensory (£5 a week) and slimming world (£5 a week). I then go for a walk with a group of mums once a week and we have a coffee afterwards. This mornings coffee doesn't usually happen, it's only because I was down there with his parents dog and I just fancied a coffee because it was really nice there today. He is saying that if I had been with someone else it would have been fine because it's being sociable. I argued that if his hobby was cycling or running which he might do by himself I would still be happy for him to pursue it, it just so happens that he plays rugby and that is a team sport.

This next bit is the important bit.

He then said that he is spending his money when he does things, and I am spending our money. My argument is that all of the money is our money, including he money that my parents have promised me for the property purchase** whenever that happens.

I think this statement completely summarises his attitude towards me being a stay at home mum and whilst he is happy for me to do so, he is going to want me to account for every last penny I spend because as far as he is concerned, I am not the one who went out and earned it. I also think that this shows he does not value anything I do in the home and whilst I am happy to do it and appreciate that I am fortunate to be able to stay at home, I do not think that attitude is fair.

Well done if you are still reading - I am happy to be told I am unreasonable if I am and in which case I need to start grovelling after the argument we've just had. If I am not being unreasonable and he is being financially controlling, then I am just disappointed in myself for being so stupid as to think we were on the same wavelength.

Thank you.

How are you, OP?

Hi @TheSeasonOfTheWitch and everyone else!

I was actually going to come on here and update you all on coffeegate today. Made some progress:

Joint savings and current accounts all set up for all earnings going forward.

Meeting with solicitor booked for next week. DH still wants to keep this house in his name until we buy the next house. He proposes putting the new house in joint names and agrees to add me to the deeds here when that happens. Both lots of savings will go into new house, plus my parents investment. So at that point, everything will be 50:50. If it's relevant, he will technically have still put in the lions share of everything we then own jointly together, but obviously we're both trying to adjust our 'his and hers' mindset so don't want to describe it like that. I've got my own meeting with a solicitor booked to advise me on this and have told DH that it is likely I will register matrimonial rights here to protect me until the house purchase and reorganisation of assets (if of course there is going to be a house purchase at all, the search is on hold until the outcome of these meetings is known).

I've got a conference call with HR to discuss my return to work on Monday afternoon. Not sure what the outcome of that will me so we'll cross that bridge then.

Going browsing for a car tomorrow, which will be our car paid for from our new joint savings account. DH due dividends at the end of this month (financial year) so there will be funds available.

I had a lie in and went for a run this morning whilst DH got up with DS.

I've been out for coffee twice this week

I should have added that I am not 100% comfortable with the current and new house ownership situation, but nothing has been set in stone until after the meetings with the solicitors and my parent's money is going nowhere until everyone is satisfied.

He's still not listening re house is he though?.

Darling, you need your name on the deeds of that house. It's a form and £40. I really don't understand why he's balking. Or at least I might but that's thinking the worst of him.

Really pleased you've sorted the rest out but don't let the house ownership rest. It's the biggie. Enjoy your coffees!

Thanks for updating us OP. Sounds like progress and in the direction you want it to go for now. Your eyes are open and youre fighting your corner x

I know you are right regarding the house and that's why I'm off to get my own solicitors advice. He's very set on this though and I'm not sure what else I can do about it. We've gone round and round in circles, other than divorcing him what can I do?!

I don't think he is 'out for what he can get' as it were. If I'm worried about the money from my parents he's quite happy for us to go without it and I'll still be on both sets of deeds when (if) the new purchase takes place. He's also happy for me to go back to work if I want to and that makes me more comfortable about it all.

I think it's a major mindset issue and he doesn't see what I have given up and will be giving up. He just sees the fact that he saved hard for that house, the majority of the savings were made before we even met and so why should I be assigned 50% of what he worked hard for before I was on the scene.

I was thinking that if I agree to his proposal, at least I can protect myself by registering matrimonial rights while we live here and when we don't I'll be put onto the deeds anyway.

I know this is the wrong way of looking at it, I know that when we married we agreed to be totally equal from that day forward. But what else can I do? I still want to be married to him, I've seen a lot of change on the last week and in a couple of years everything will be 50:50. I don't want to sound like I'm backing down because believe me, this is still at the forefront of my mind, but besides divorce what are my options?

It's easy to pretend to be someone else for a few weeks. You're not comfortable with it because you're listening to your gut.
Don't back down

Remind him of him of his vows "All that I have I share with you" or "With all my worldly goods I thee endow". I'd be seriously worried about this.

I've been over and over it with him, I'm just not sure what I can actually do or say that will change it.

He thinks he's being reasonable by putting me on when we move because I have the security I need whilst we live here and when we don't, the situation will be rectified. As far as I can see there is no reason why we can't do that now, but I can't seem to make him see that and I'm not sure how else to go about it.

Still getting some legal representation for yourself is a good idea but as you are married you have some rights anyway. How long will it be before you buy a new property and is he going to listen to your input as to where that new property is going to be?

I think you need to ask yourself two questions. Do you still want to be married to him considering he seems to be rather mercurial? He seems to be trying to change and is starting to sort things out (joint accounts and being a more engaged dad at the weekends) but is it enough for you?

The other question is that you have sacrificed a lot for him in terms of moving and so on. Do you wish to be financially dependent on him given his attitude to what is his and what is yours and not totally on board with ours? If so I would return to work (even part time) and he has to contribute to childcare costs and help around the home if affordable and you no longer have the time to do it and he wont help.

I'd be telling him that the move is off the table until your name is on the deeds of the house now- you actually hold a lot of power here thanks to your parents money.

Probably best to see what your solicitor says - I can guess they'll say the same as all of us and your mum - and take it from there. He's come up with every excuse going and you've had the reasons to show he's on the wrong page. Now he's not even come up with a reason, just intransigence.

Glad you had a lie in and have enjoyed coffee out this week though!!

Plums of wrath did great post a page back.

What you have sacrificed and done and how you have changed your whole life from what it was before has not been valued by him.

Agree with pp to the hold off until get proper legal advice although they may err naturally towards protection of assets.

@Cornishclio we hope to have moved by the end of next year. It just depends when the right thing comes up but we want to be settled before I have to apply for DS's preschool at the beginning of 2020. I do think we'll have equal say in the new house, for example he'd quite like to do a newbuild and I want something older that we can renovate, we've been looking at older renovation projects because (until now) it's always been me who is going to spend more time at home. He'd be happy to stay on the outskirts of the town we live in now, I want village location. We've been looking at villages. It's not that he isn't happy to live in an older house in a village, but it is a compromise for him.

@OliviaBenson the trouble is it's me who is desperate to move. He'd be happy to stay here longer until we save up enough to do the move without my parents input. We live fairly cheaply right now because we have no mortgage and he doesn't have to commute, hence why there are significant savings. He'd be happy to stay for another 5 years of my parents money wasn't available, but I don't want to stay here that long.

No I think you’re right. You’ve been very firm with him and still he hasn’t agreed to do the right thing. My husband has brought much more money into our marriage but we share everything equally. There were a few issues to work out at the beginning but we very soon realised that we were in this for life so we needed to act like we were. We were stronger together. If I was a sahm, he would have immediately added my name to all assets without discussion. I think that’s fairly normal behaviour.

He’s still reluctant to fully include you and though you’ve done a fantastic job of negotiating, there’s still reluctance. This would make me feel like he’s still looking out for number one.

If he really won’t budge, and you don’t want a divorce, you’ll have to live with the unequal situation. I really feel for you. There will be a chorus of LTB but ultimately this is your real life and only you can make the ultimate decision.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before and I’ve missed it .

But it would be much more tax efficient for you to own some shares in his business. You know, the one that you helped him build.

Then you could also get dividends, which are taxed at a lower rate than earned income. You could take enough to bring your own income up to just below the next tax band.

This assumes he’s a limited company and not a sole trader.

It’s completely separate from actually working foe the company, for which you would receive salary.

I’m suprised that Mr Tax Efficient and his accountant haven’t thought of that.

@Whatthefoxgoingon you've summed it up really well.

It's not that I don't think every poster here is right. You are all absolutely right and I am so grateful for everyone's advice. He should put me on the deeds no question, but getting him to actually do it is another. The advice on here is spot on, but there is only so many times you can say the same thing over and over again.

If I thought all he was after was a woman to do all the wife work and to get his hands on my parents investment then I would leave him, but I don't think that is the case.

If he won’t put you on the deeds now as a co-owner and won’t share current savings, I would suggest the following.
Lend your parents Your £30k savings to add into their £175k and let them buy a property (in their names so it’s not a matrimonial asset). You can ‘help’ choose it in an area near good schools etc. maybe get it near your workplace so you can stay overnight near the office a few nights a week and save you the commute. You then have a good investment and a place to go in the future if needs be. And he gets to see that you are looking for an equal partnership where he needs to step up as a dad and as a husband.
Then carry on in your marriage and future financial plans as agreed.
If it turns out that more than ‘his’ £85k is needed to buy a new property, he can look at selling ‘his’ house.

If you are considering letting out your existing house when you buy another property, the first property would become your second home, if/when this is sold at a later date capital gains tax would be liable on any profit made from time of purchase. Point out to your DH that it would be prudent to have your name added on the deeds sooner rather than later, as you would each have your own allowance to offset against gain in value.

My siblings and I inherited a property, our names were put on the deeds, the property was rented out for a while, when it came to selling property prices had gone up but no capital gain was due as we could each offset our individual allowance.

Well, I'm not surprised you're going round and round on the deeds. Honestly, I'd 'table' any discussion about the current house deeds until after all solicitor/accountant consultations. DH's objections all seem to be reasons why it doesn't make sense financially to put you on the deeds. See the solicitors and get those completely ruled out. Once that's done and if then he doesn't agree to add you to the deeds, you'll have your 'real reason'. He is either selfish or doesn't trust you.

@namechange59295 how are you, how did Monday's conference call go?