Who is being unreasonable - joint finances

[namechange59295]

Namechanged for this but regular poster.

Please help me work out whether I am being unreasonable, or whether my husband is being unreasonable (I think he is, obviously!).

I'll try to make his as succinct as possible. Been with my DH for 8 years, married for 18 months, DS1 is 7.5 months. DH bought the house we live in when we had been together for 2 years, large cash deposit, small mortgage. I moved in and paid a reduced rent until the mortgage was cleared (approx. 3 years). I have then lived there for free ever since. The justification for this which we both agreed to was that I had to move around an hour from my friends, family and work to allow him to continue to run his business, which would obviously benefit us both in the future. His friends, family and hobbies are on his doorstep (literally, we can see his parents house and the rugby field from our windows!). I hate the town we live in, but we plan to move out of town in the next couple of years and as I have made lots of friends in the wider area I am happy with this prospect, although ultimately I would prefer to move back to where I grew up and where my family are.

So, mortgage is paid off and we both have significant savings, however he has about 3 times what I have. I believe his ability to save has been partly facilitated by me because by moving to his area I have allowed our relationship to continue and him to pursue his professional desires. Of course he has also saved very hard and worked very hard for that money. I have explained this part of our financial situation not to be goady, but I don't want to drip feed and I do think this is relevant to my AIBU.

Since moving in together we have paid into a joint account for food, bills, council tax etc etc. Basically everything that's needed to keep the house running. I have just stopped receiving maternity pay but have been paying in as normal until now. Agreement is that I will stay at home with DS1 because my commute to work means I would work for about £25 per day once we have paid for childcare. We have always been of the understanding that we would both prefer for me to be at home with the children for a certain amount of time whilst they are young and that was a large part of the reason we have settled in DH's area. All discussed and agreed years ago.

I do all of the housework, so cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing, food shopping, bins, recycling, night feeds etc. plus all those other little things like buying birthday presents, cards etc. He does bath and bed with DS 5 nights a week. He plays rugby twice a week and all day on a Saturday, with the occasional night out afterwards (not regular, say once every 2 months or so). He has a lie in at the weekend on both days while I get up with DS.

I have always said that I would prefer our savings to be held jointly, with a direct debit into an account for household stuff and then an equal allowance each for spending money. He has always said that he will just top up our existing joint account as needed. We are both relatively good with money so whilst I'm not really comfortable with this, in theory it should work as long as we are both reasonable.

With regards to our savings, we are both saving for a property investment, so in that sense our intentions for the savings are mutual. He obviously has a great deal more than I do at present, but my parents will be giving us a significant (approx £175k) sum to purchase said property when we find it so he will then benefit from my/their investment. Basically what I am trying to say is that we are on a fairly level playing field once all is taken into consideration.

Fast forward to today. We are looking after his parents dog for a few days while they are away. I took her for a run on the beach this morning and it was lovely down there so I bought a coffee in the cafe and sat outside for a bit longer. The coffee cost £1.50. DH has told me that I should take my own coffee in a flask because buying a coffee out is a waste of money. He says that if I was out for a walk with a friend and we went into the coffee shop that's fine because it's being sociable. I think that considering he disappears for 2 evenings a week plus most of Saturday week in week out (and there is a cost of say £20 a week for this) I should be allowed to buy a bloody coffee every now and then if I want one! I'm not one of these people who walks around with a costa permanently attached to my hand, I hardly ever buy drinks or food out. My social commitments are a buggy fitness group once or twice a week (£4 a time), baby sensory (£5 a week) and slimming world (£5 a week). I then go for a walk with a group of mums once a week and we have a coffee afterwards. This mornings coffee doesn't usually happen, it's only because I was down there with his parents dog and I just fancied a coffee because it was really nice there today. He is saying that if I had been with someone else it would have been fine because it's being sociable. I argued that if his hobby was cycling or running which he might do by himself I would still be happy for him to pursue it, it just so happens that he plays rugby and that is a team sport.

This next bit is the important bit.

He then said that he is spending his money when he does things, and I am spending our money. My argument is that all of the money is our money, including he money that my parents have promised me for the property purchase** whenever that happens.

I think this statement completely summarises his attitude towards me being a stay at home mum and whilst he is happy for me to do so, he is going to want me to account for every last penny I spend because as far as he is concerned, I am not the one who went out and earned it. I also think that this shows he does not value anything I do in the home and whilst I am happy to do it and appreciate that I am fortunate to be able to stay at home, I do not think that attitude is fair.

Well done if you are still reading - I am happy to be told I am unreasonable if I am and in which case I need to start grovelling after the argument we've just had. If I am not being unreasonable and he is being financially controlling, then I am just disappointed in myself for being so stupid as to think we were on the same wavelength.

Thank you.

Hang on, what's the £300 about? He really doesn't like sharing, does he?

Does a solicitor need to be involved for op today go on the deeds? What's background check for?,

Sounds like he wants to keep this current property in the bag, safe and get a bit nice new one you will be mostly paying for!!

No background check as it has no mortgage. No solicitor needed as it's filling in a simple form. It just could not be easier.

@LoveInTokyo - no mortgage, paid off in 2015.

So it looks like just the £40 fee and LR form.

@Myimaginarycathasfleas - his full salary plus dividends go into a joint savings account, a direct debit from here goes into a joint current account for household spending. The £300 per month goes to me personally in view of the fact that I'm giving up earning potential, pension etc. I'm only agreeing to this if my name goes onto the house deeds. My new car, the cost of running it etc comes out of the joint current or savings account, as does anything else that's not my personal spending (e.g., if I fancy a shopping spree, spa day or whatever - something that is just for me.)

If he agrees to put my name on the deeds, which I think I might be making headway with, the only thing that isn't joint is the £85k/£39k current savings. Given that these savings were largely pre-DS, would you let this slide?

@timeisnotaline 100% yes, excuse after excuse.

Oh yeah if there is no mortgage then it should be easy.

Registering Matrimonial Home rights is a fairly simple thing to do. Just be aware Land Registry will inform the legal owner.

Op is married, so whose name is on the deeds isn’t that important although I get why op is insisting on it. What I’d be more concerned about is having access to joint savings and H attitude in general going forward.

I probably would let the savings go. If you were to divorce all the savings would be seen as marital assets regardless of whose name they're in. I'd focus on getting your name on the house for now.

He had no idea how expensive that £1.50 coffee would turn out to be, did he?

Rock, it is important because he bought the house pre marriage.

Just send him a bill for cleaning , meals and childcare , i would tell him to swivel , tight arsed git

@RockPaperCut also important because our intention is to buy a new house to live in, keep this one and rent it out. Then it will no longer be the matrimonial home, although as previous posters have pointed out it would be considered so anyway because he bought it pre-marriage.

@Bluelady - my mum said exactly the same earlier! I'm glad it happened now!

He's getting a live in nanny, cleaner, cook and dog walker 7 days a week for £300 a month. What funds does he have available to him? A hell of a lot more I'll bet!

I still think he's doing a number on you.

For full disclosure we don't have all our accounts joint but this is by agreement as I'm a good saver and husband by his own admission is a but profligate. The difference is we both consider all money our money, all large expenditure is discussed and agreed, all personal spending is not queried.

So his main aim is to ensure that you never have a claim on the current family home? Did he want you to sign a pre nup? Or is he just aiming to do it on the sly?

Blue My understanding is that the assets gained prior to marriage needed to be kept wholly separate in order for them to be considered non-matrimonial. In this case op has lived in the property, and by the sounds of it Op has contributed to its upkeep. Op in any case, I’d recommend getting some legal advice just to be sure of where you stand.

Could you not go back to work part time ? This way you have money coming in and then make sure you’re name is on the house and all money is joint or £300 a month for you to spends sounds like old fashion pin money

Transferring a property into joint names between spouses is easy. I last did it in 2008 & used a solicitor. Can’t remember the exact cost but I think it was in the region of £100. You could phone any local solicitor & get a quote.
Your parents are spot on by not transferring any money over until ALL assets are in joint names, including savings. That is what I would insist on if I were them.
This £1.50 coffee he objected to has backfired on him quite badly now hasn’t it?

For goodness sake just leave him now. He neither loves or respects you if he treats you like this.

Stop and think about what the divorce negotiations are going to be like when your marriage breaks up in the future if this negotiation to get him to stop being financially abusive is so hard now. You won’t tolerate his financial control and general selfishness and he obviously can’t change his nature.

And go back to work so that you can support yourself and your son in future. This man will never willingly pay sufficient maintenance.

For what it’s worth, I have both been a SAHM at times during my DC’s childhood and used childcare. The DCs thrived in both situations and you will not let your DC down if you work.

@honeylulu - he wouldn't have any other money other that the £85k he has saved up pre-DS. His entire salary plus dividends would be split between the joint savings account, joint current account and my personal account £300. When he needs £20 to go to the rugby club he'd have to take it out of the joint current account. I think that would be fine because he isn't a big spender.

@honeylulu - I should just also say that the £85k is intended to go into the new house and of course my £175k won't be going in until I know this is definitely happening

For goodness sake just leave him now. He neither loves or respects you if he treats you like this.

I agree with this.

My exh was exactly the same, SAHM, 2dc, my name not on the deeds or on household bills. Savings in his name only. Living somewhere I hated for his benefit. I had to account for how much I spent whilst he had free reign. I spent years trying to get him to see my POV, I gave up. I’m divorcing him instead.

I just wanted to chime in here, as I was/am in a similar situation with regard to STBX attitude towards money (part of the reason he is a STBX)

In hindsight, there were red flags before we got married which I didn't pay attention to. I almost broke off the engagement when I found out he'd been lying about money. Oh how I wish I had.

When we got married, he insisted on all joint accounts (except the ones like registered savings accounts which can't be) - I wasn't comfortable with this because of the disparities in our incomes, and his attitude about money. I wanted a separate account for both of us to have spending money that we didn't have to justify to the other person. I didn't get this, and his argument was that since he was the one who wanted joint accounts, I was wrong that he didn't consider the money ours.

In the first 3 years of marriage pre-DS, probably half of our savings went into his individual registered accounts for tax purposes. In the meantime, he was also contributing to a pension. Almost nothing went into a retirement fund for me or into my own registered savings accounts. I was a student, but paid, and actually earning a significant amount of money tax-free from major scholarships and teaching assistantships.

Fast forward to getting pregnant with DS - I quit school to follow stbx to another country for the benefit of his career. I did not return to work because every time it came up, stbx thought he was being moved again for work. Fast forward to DS age 2, find out STBX was having an affair.

I will forever be grateful that one of my friends told me to move a significant chunk of cash into an individual account in my name when I found out about OW. If I had not, I would have been screwed because when I finally decided I'd had enough of his lying and his shit attitude towards money (i'll give examples in a sec), he emptied the rest of the joint accounts. Divorce is so expensive here I have now dipped into that savings that I moved when i found out about OW or I would have serious debt levels.

He is also now trying to pretend his pension for the first 7 years of our marriage does not exist (he didn't start working until after we were married so it is wholly a marital asset) because he doesn't want me to get my fair share (half), because he considers it HIS money that he earned. He actually doesn't think that any of the savings we put into his individual registered accounts is half mine either. I have also found out that he had several bank accounts that I didn't know about. And when we were trying to make things work, I told him we should put the equivalent amount into my retirement funds/other savings - his answer, just like your DH, was that there was no tax benefit to doing so.

People like this cannot change their views - he still held this view despite almost 2 years of marriage counselling. It is a major reason why we could not reconcile aside from OW.

In terms of your coffee example, he too did this. He would quiz me on why groceries cost so much, despite never having done a single grocery shop by himself during our marriage unless I was away. He would go to the shops and buy whatever he fancied and never even look at the cheaper brand. He would tell me we needed to cut back on expenses, but want to take $10k holidays.

Once we moved for his job, he started travelling a lot and would be away up to 2 weeks at a time leaving me with DS and no family nearby to help. If I got a babysitter to give me a break for a couple of hours, ONCE in the middle of the trip, he would come home and ask me if I really thought I should be spending money on that.

We were mid-move when I found out about OW. I did everything for the move - he actually left me trying to sort the mortgage out for the house we were buying to jet off with OW. When we arrived here, I wanted to treat myself to a mani pedi, which I hadn't had in more than a year. Once again (this despite him having just been caught with OW and him supposedly trying to make it up to me), I got the "do you really think you should be spending money on this" when he had just spend several thousand dollars on trips with OW. I was later told that I should be happy with him because he's the one who has to work to earn the money.

I do not mean to imply that your DH will go out and get an OW. I mean that this attitude of all the money being his will not go away. I know that marital property laws are different everywhere (here the house you are in now would not be marital property because he owned it before you were married, but the 9k contribution would be your separate property) - you definitely should find out what the laws are regarding division of assets, and use that in your financial decisions going forward. Here, gifts made to an individual are considered separate property, but you would have to prove it was a gift (re the 175k from your parents).

I did not mean that to be so long. I wanted to give you an example of how it can end up if someone you love has this attitude about money - you may do the right thing, but he won't.

@Categoric - I totally get what you mean, I really do. However I have decided I am going to try and make an attempt to rectify this situation because I do think there is the potential for change. I absolutely see where you are coming from though and I know that I would be saying he same as you if this thread had been started by someone else.

There are probably lots of times people tell the OP to leave but I always wonder how many actually would do that themselves.

I am absolutely not saying you're not right and that you don't have a valid point. It's excuse after excuse and why should I want to be saddled with someone like that? But the truth is, there are good aspects to our relationship, we have a lovely DS together and I have invested massively in our life here. If we could get to the bottom of this I think we can be happy. His mindset towards 'all that I have I give to you' is completely skewed but I think there is potential to change. We've already come quite a long way since Friday afternoon.

I own a house outright and the deeds are kept in the solicitors vault. Adding names to the title deeds is relatively cheap. It would probably cost more if they are held by the mortgage provider. As for putting in trust for his children, any solicitor would strongly advise against this as I was with money I was trying to hide and you get taxed the parents rate from any income accrued from any investments. Different when your children becoming adults. I very much doubt your husband is putting it in trust for his children, even if he was how about the the interim time you get added to the title deeds? He will find excuses as that is his security, and he knows the most you will get will be half the amount in value increased since you have been married.

Thank you for sharing those stories @ExpatTrailingSpouse and @RockPaperCut. I've cross posted but that definitely gives me food for thought and I'll read them again in more detail.

I'll be ringing Land Registry tomorrow to confirm what you've all told me about adding my name to the deeds for this house. Assuming you are all correct that it is simple and cheap (and I'm sure you are correct) I'll put this to him and his response will be very interesting.