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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to be shocked

174 replies

nickedaname · 15/03/2018 21:45

My son has just come back from an Army Insight course. He spent a night out on patrol; ran a mile and a half; marched around; took all the shouting and drilling and so on. That was fine.

However, he was a bit surprised at the behaviour of some of the seasoned soldiers who were running the course. In fact he was quite shocked by some of the behaviour and some of the things the men said.

Some of the boys on the course were 16 (like my son) and the men were about twice their age.

I do not want to say too much about the behaviour or the content of what was said, but I was a bit shocked. My son said the men were 'desensitised' and he does not usually use words of more than two syllables.

I don't expect soldiers to act like angels, but I was a bit shocked when my son told me about their behaviour and the topics of discussion. AIBU to feel this was insight into something the army would not be proud of?

OP posts:
lakeshoreliving · 16/03/2018 00:04

When 15 myself and some mates spent a week training with army on some youth thing, this was more than 20 years ago. There weren't any rape jokes but there was a lot of sexual innuendo, we all went swimming and they gave us miss world ratings in our swimsuits with bonus points for being see through. Lots of shower jokes. I got grief because I wouldn't smoke. But they were helpful and caring in their own manner. The officer wasn't like this at all but I think to get on you had to be pretty robust and self confident. Sexism aside I really enjoyed the week.

Viviennemary · 16/03/2018 00:22

If you can't say exactly what the behaviour was that so shocked you it's a bit difficult to say whether or not YABU. In fact it's impossible.

halfwitpicker · 16/03/2018 00:30

Well, no doubt a lot of it was bravado / initiation ceremony style talk to see if the newbies could hack it.

But I'd say it's a decent indication of the usual chat. Can't see them nattering about cross stitch or whatever.

Comes with the territory surely.

spicerack · 16/03/2018 00:30

I wasn't saying the rape jokes are okay because they're trained to kill, I meant the fact that they're trained to kill means they're horrible not nice people

halfwitpicker · 16/03/2018 00:32

We haven't actually heard this rape joke though have we?

It's just second /third hand information.

NotAllTimsWearCapes · 16/03/2018 00:35

Can't see them nattering about cross stitch or whatever.

Odds are there are at least a couple of forces personel who partake in a bit of cross-stitch Grin why shouldn’t they be able to natter about it Wink

pallisers · 16/03/2018 00:41

Can't see them nattering about cross stitch or whatever.

yes because that's the choice: rape jokes and shit that would shock a 16 year old boy in cadet training... or cross stitch. Those of us who don't do rape jokes are bored out of our minds with the cross stitch but fuck it ... thems the choices.

I meant the fact that they're trained to kill means they're horrible not nice people

Are you for real with this? Am I misinterpreting you? We need an army and we do need people trained to fight (and supply an army and manage an army and keep the peace etc). Do you really think all of them are horrible people? I've met and worked with really wonderful ex-armed forces. Isn't it possible to train people to defend their country, provide the unique set of skills in leadership and operations etc that the armed forces do, and set a standard that excludes truly crude, offensive shit? Or is it that excluding that shit isn't a priority and might require some effort?

Charolais · 16/03/2018 00:47

Talking ‘dirty' is normal in all male groups.

When Trump was bragging about ‘grabbing a women by the pussy’ in private conversation, as a private citizen, people pretended to be so shocked and offended.

pallisers · 16/03/2018 01:40

Talking ‘dirty' is normal in all male groups.

I admire you Charolais for acknowledging that all men are like that - All male groups think rape is funny or titillating. Well done to you for not kow-towing to the usual "not all men are like that". You acknowledge where the problem lies - with men - and that is the beginning of solving the problem.

LolitaLempicka · 16/03/2018 02:14

Op, you are definitely nbu to be shocked by this. I am. But I am possibly even more shocked by the people on here defending rape jokes. Disgusting. It is thoroughly shameful.

startingagain17 · 16/03/2018 02:21

I'm an ex squaddie. It's very normal. When on tour in Greece us females had to endure groups of lads sat around in our plant shed 'Set up' watching hard-core porn, like they were simply watching Jeremy kyle and drinking their morning brew

Raven88 · 16/03/2018 02:42

@nickedaname I'm a little desensitised too. I'm not in the army, I'm in social care and sometimes we use humour with colleagues after a stressful or upsetting incident.

But it sounds too much and a bit like a culture that has been created. To me Rape jokes aren't ok and I've heard too many stories of people in the military committing rapes whilst in conflict zones.

Kursk · 16/03/2018 02:56

I agree that it’s typical military behavior. The military is a completely different working environment where behavior that would get you sacked and possibly arrested in the civilian world is perfectly acceptable in the army.

I was in the Air Cadets it was very rough, but I loved it. I remember being punched for getting answers wrong in a test, and laughing about it. Seems strange now.

OP watch Full Metal Jacket. The actor playing the Drill Sgt was a Drill Sgt in his real life. In a interview he said he wasn’t acting while playing the role.

LolitaLempicka · 16/03/2018 03:03

Wait people....the OP is saying that they are not just talking about bombs or being over exuberant in driving . BUT THEY WERE TELLING RAPE JOKES. Is there anyone that really wants to defend this?

HuskyMcClusky · 16/03/2018 03:21

Yeah, I’m with pallisers.

The rape joke thing crosses a big white line, and I’ve worked in some extremely male-dominated environments.

BoomBoomsCousin · 16/03/2018 03:30

I am not surprised at the subjects you mention OP. Rape jokes are quite prevalent in a lot of all male groups, especially ones with a macho culture. Dealing with the brutality of their work by joking about it and taking risks seems par for the course.

I think it's still shocking and the fact they don't even think to reign it in when there are young around shows how normalised it is. It's probably a good insight into what he'll actually see if he joins up.

NotTheFordType · 16/03/2018 03:58

Op when you say "people" I assume you meant a racial slur that starts with a P?

My son stopped going to cadets due to this attitude. Rough housing, sex talk (not rape jokes) fine. Racism no. I'm proud of him.

Ariesgirl1988 · 16/03/2018 03:58

in the military they're made to be desensitised due all the horrific stuff they see and sometimes have to do on deployment (I've had a lot of family in the military) and they do this stuff to toughen up recruits and weed out the ones not built for it. my cousin has been to Afghanistan and Iraq and he has seen some horrific stuff he doesn't talk about it much but basically he said humour even inappropriate/dark humour is a coping mechanism for them so they dnt lose their shit kinda like looking for the funny side in a bad situation

treaclesoda · 16/03/2018 04:17

The dark humour etc I can totally understand, but rape jokes cross the line for me.

HoppingPavlova · 16/03/2018 04:46

I’m certainly not defending that behaviour and I don’t think anyone should get praised for it. But surprised, nope.

Pengggwn · 16/03/2018 05:49

It's not very pleasant, but it's what he should expect in the future.

I think 16 is stupidly young to join the army anyway and the minimum age should be 18.

Pengggwn · 16/03/2018 05:52

The rape jokes thing is bad. On the surface you'd think it would be something to complain about because the jokes are being told 'at work', but in practice, I think the DS will find that there is no distinction in the army between work time and no -work time: you're just on or off duty. So people will behave like they are talking to their mates down the pub, where rape jokes are unpleasant but no one is breaking any laws.

Your DS could probably complain that the rape jokes made him very uncomfortable, but I can't see a future for him in the army if he does that. Sad

Adrianflank · 16/03/2018 06:43

Like someone said, the military is a different world to "civie street" things that they do would get you sacked or arrested outside the military!

My brother is in the infantry, he has done 2 tours of Afghanistan, he is completely desensitized, when he was in training, if you had a problem with Someone, you wouldn't go running to an officer, you was locked in the "cage" and they would fight it out!

Original poster
nickedaname · 16/03/2018 07:02

Thank you for the replies. It is helpful to have a variety of opinions.

I can accept that the rape jokes were part of a particular type of 'banter' (jokes about raping each other and about raping the trainees in their sleep); the racist jokes about splattering 'ragheads' is also just part of the culture. My shock comes from the fact that this was said to trainees who were so young.

I am glad that my son went on the training and he did enjoy it. Yet, I am also glad that he is aware that some of the behaviour and the things that were said were wrong. At least now, if he does join up, he knows what to expect in the barracks as well as out on the field.

OP posts:
CosmicCanary · 16/03/2018 07:12

I am a civvy that works along side the armed forces and in 5 years I have never heard a "rape joke".

Sexist jokes yes.
Sexual jokes. Yes
Very dark humour. Yes
Does it happen? Probably. The factory lads I worked with in my late teens made rape jokes so I wont say some in the armed forces don't.

I see the other side of them too. I see them having a laugh/banter and the dark humour I see the bravado but then I see them break down. I see them battle with the things they did as it is their job. I see them crippled by nightmares of what they have seen. I see their lives ruined and in some cases destroyed forever.

Very very few see themselves as heros.

My own DS wants to join the RAF.
I can tell you its not him hearing rape jokes or dark humour that worries me. It the damage to his MH should he end up in conflict.

I am sorry your son was upset by the behaviour of some. Not sure you can condem over 1 million service personnel because of it though.

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