To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I think youve got them the wrong way round. Atheist will happily say ' i dont know' when they dont know. They might have some ideas but until they have evidence they dont say that they know.

Some atheists do that. Others absolutely are certain, unfixed and frankly irrational. Because people are people - some religious people are dogmatic and unbending, some are open and curious. Same for atheists. Being an atheist doesn't automatically make you a logical thinker or good at having reasoned arguments. See, for instance, all the 'sky fairy' stuff, which is just an attempt to offend through emotion, not any kind of rational argument.

My atheism is 'I see no reason to believe in a personal god at the moment'. I'm not making a claim. I'm not the one claiming I've found the true god and it listens to me.

I can't see how it is a faith system? But for Christians that want atheism to be seen as a religion, aren't you acknowledging the farcical nature of belief by doing so?

I genuinely wonder why atheists think they have all the answers. I'm not in any camp but the arrogance of atheists grates on me.

Atheists don't think they have all the answers any more than religious people do. As an atheist, I think science has found many answers, but some things are not yet known. Lots of religious people think they do have all the answers, because their answer is always 'God did it'.

Ragwort - just out of interest, how did you pick which religion to follow and whichever god to believe in?

I started attending the local CoE Church, mainly because it offered a very good youth club boys, we had great disucssions around moral issues, the Leaders were quite 'young and trendy' (at the time - this is over 40 years ago - interestingly we are still in touch) and it just seemed a nice bunch of people. We were invited to attend Church although could still go to the Youth Club bit without having to attend.

I did start attending that particular Church, then as I moved I went to different Churches (still CoE) but then moved to a more Methodist type Church. Have moved around the country a bit but still prefer to stick with Methodist churches.

My teenage DS now attends a similar style youth club - a different Church to mine.

I am an atheist, although I have never struggled with the concept of God allowing suffering (though I disagree that if He exists that He is also kind...).

It's like writing a soap. You don't write one of people bumbling around doing nice things all the time and getting on with their lives, because what's the point? If heaven is something we earn, then suffering needs to happen somewhere so that our goodness and forbearance in handling and ministering to it can be proven.

I am writing a book. I am the God of that little piece of creation in a sense. Characters face difficulty, suffering and death. Because if I didn't, bugger all would happen. Now extrapolate that to if I were literally omnipotent - if I were trying to test people, I'd do the same. If I were trying to be nice, I wouldn't.

People seem to be universally ascribing all sorts of beliefs and attitudes to atheists in general. Atheism just means not believing in gods. There are some argumentative, pig-headed and offensive atheists, just as there are some argumentative, pig-headed and offensive religious people.

Meh, there are people who are dicks about their religion and there are people who are dicks about their atheism.

Fortunately most believers and atheists are grand.

Yes there are arrogant pig headed religious people just as much as arrogant pig headed atheists, but who started this thread? The title is a little arrogant and superior (in my humble opinion!)

In all religions you get some loud mouthed pig headed argumentative people who behave badly in the name of said chosen religion.

And plenty who quietly and respectfully hold their personal beliefs about their god/absense of a god.

Fully agree.

I loathe all forms of religion and feel it is responsible for so many of the worlds problems. We were brought up Christian and my mother insisted on us all being confirmed. However, I found that the meanest / bitchiest people were the regulars in the congregation - nothing Christian about that!

I find it cult-like. Whilst I think children should be able to make their own choices, I do feel in a modern society religion has no place for forward thinking people. Luckily our children are like-minded!

However, it's not my place to disrespect other people's views. Happy to respect others and therefore would hope mine would be too.

My atheism is 'I see no reason to believe in a personal god at the moment'.

I would consider that agnostic, but obviously you can choose the label that you best think suits you.

When my FIL was in the last few years of life, he found a local widow/er group at the local Church, and it was a great source of company and socialising for him. They regularly met at each others home, days out etc, lunches out and the Vicar was the glue that sort of held them all together. In that way, I think religion can be a positive thing in peoples lives.

But my sister and I are now NC, as she has found the Lord in her 40s. She is obsessed with all things religious, does healing prayers for people and is a very active church goer. I also think it's a cry for help and a form of mental illness in cases like my sister. She's horribly pious and pompous with her love of God.

Nearly every war in the world has been down to religion. I find that hard to accept that a God could be accepting of. I'm very happy to sit on the fence with it.

I think that religion should be presented as a choice - right from early school days.

The most enlightening, relieving day of my life was when I was told as a (God fearing, Catholic raised, but not really believing in it all) child that it was ok to NOT believe.

Apricot, everything about your post made me laugh, from the insistence that you let your children make their own choices (and they ended up thinking just like you'd told them to - what a turn-up for the books!) to the juxtaposition of 'religion has no place for forward thinking people' with the assertion that you're not 'disrespecting' anyone!

I thought I was quite liberal about allowing everyone to have their faith. However recently I’m been preached to quite strongly by religious folk and I felt quite affronted. It sounds total twaddle to be honest, my brain can’t deal with being fed a fairy story in this day and age when science explains it all.

I've just attended a Catholic university where we have to do a unit of Theology as part of our degree. Obviously many don't want to do it but its compulsory, it entailed a 3 hour lecture followed by a 1 hr compulsory tutorial. The lecturer would put up around 10 slides in advance to prepare then deliver around 40 slides in the lecture, it was pretty mean and designed to jeopardise the students who didn't turn up to the lecture. we had to write a reflection on a journal that was uploaded weekly and this and only this could be discussed in tutorials, the tutor was not allowed to discuss or clarify the lecture, again I found this pretty mean. We then had to sit 2 tests where we had multiple choice questions, 2 answers were correct, 2 were wrong, if we got 1 right we lost the points we had to get both right to get the point and it was largely based on the slides not uploaded and again the tutor couldn't help or prepare us, it was pretty ruthless to be honest, I passed but all I questioned throughout the whole ordeal was 'is this supposed to be christian?' is this caring and nurturing or is this just downright barbaric, mean and spiteful? I can tell you so many friends failed and having to redo it set them back in their degree, it really made me question the good side of religion

I've toyed with this concept for ages as my family are all religious and I'm definitely not. I have had hard times like others where doing something like praying seems practical when there is nothing else you can really do, but never actually really gone through with it.
I can completely understand religion, believing in something higher, not wanting this life to be fleeting, and obviously back in the early BCs and ADs, right up until not that long ago for some people, and still ongoing for others, life was/ is very hard. What hope is there if there is not the hope that you aren't working away to survive for nothing? When you are unable to change a situation to make it any better and know that the existence of you and people around you is to work hard from an early age, suffer and then die, (mostly prematurely looking back in time).
I'm quite a pessimistic person and personally I don't know if I would've managed going back 100 years, never mind 1000.
That's how I've sorted it all out in my head anyway, so that the religious people in my family and I live in harmony. There are times where religion is forced upon us, which feels a bit of an invasion of our free will, and then I might pipe up about my views, but for the most part there is no need.
The kids are free to make their own decisions when they are old enough to properly understand everything. They go to church with school, sing hymns and have the local priest visit the school despite not being a C of E school, which has grated on me slightly in the past. But the architecture in the church is lovely, singing in a group is lovely, and as long as the kids are happy we are happy.

A good analogy I heard regarding God not looking out for us is that he is a living father who has let us out to play in the back garden where he can keep an eye on us.
However he is not watching us all the time and is looking away when the kids start fighting or sneak out the back gate.

Having said that I'm an agnostic.

my brain can’t deal with being fed a fairy story in this day and age when science explains it all.
Science is actually still very very far from explaining it all.

I don't understand religious belief either. I think there must be some sort of psychological switch in our brains. For some people it's switched on, meaning they find comfort in all of the ideas around belief in gods & can't understand how anyone could not believe, and for others, like me, it's switched off. I just don't get it. Personally believing in a higher power just seems ridiculous. (Note: I'm not calling believers ridiculous, just that I find the belief absurd). I can't imagine ever believing.

But live and let live. As long as religion doesn't adversely affect anyone, it's nobody's business. Unfortunately it often does, but that's another debate.

It's like writing a soap. You don't write one of people bumbling around doing nice things all the time and getting on with their lives, because what's the point? If heaven is something we earn, then suffering needs to happen somewhere so that our goodness and forbearance in handling and ministering to it can be proven.

So what happens when all those people who have proven their goodness and forbearance get to heaven? Do they just bumble around doing nice things for eternity? What of all the children who have died before they had an opportunity of proving their goodness and forbearance?

Fear of the unknown, a weakness of the mind or a real hatred for women, gays and anyone who doesn't subscribe to the same belief system as you.

Religion poisons everything. The world would be a better place without it in every single situation.

I think people struggle with the idea that this is it - our lives really are quite short and, in the grand scheme of things, relatively meaningless.

We have to make meaning in our lives but once we're gone we're gone.

It's quite a big thing to get your head around. Having a belief in heaven and being reunited with your loved ones is a comfort maybe?

I've suffered several devastating bereavements and remain firmly an atheist though. Even more so watching a child die of a brain tumour - if there is a god I want no part of whatever fucked up plan that was supposed to be.

What of all the children who have died before they had an opportunity of proving their goodness and forbearance?

I think we probably get more than one chance. Reincarnation would also explain the unfairness of how some people get such good lives while others do not. We are learning lessons through different life's, imo, itms.

I can't believe the stupidity of anyone who would think that atheism is a religion. Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.