To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I have never come across a Faith School where the faith criterion didn’t come immediately after looked after children and possibly siblings.

Daffodil what faith was the school you were talking about?

Walkingdeadfangirl what Christian church doesn't believe in a god? Is that the universalists? I heard about them years ago in USA, wonder if it's the same?

I think with the religious ceremony, they mean ones where you are making a vow to God. Obviously an atheist wouldn't do that as there wouldn't be much point (although as we've discussed, plenty do)

Maybe, maybe not. Plenty of people believe different things. Just because you dont believe a literal god actually exists does not mean your a hypocrite when you say a vow.

I specifically said 'if you are making vows to a God'. Ergo is it's hypocritical. You can't be an atheist and make a vow to a God, certainly not with any sincerity.

The siblings aspect is quite canny because it's a bit of a ruse. If the sibling got in via church, there's a fair chance the younger sibling is church too (notwithstanding the fact that most parents cheat the system by only attending in order to meet the criteria/criterion).

It craftily still favours the churchgoers.

I don't know of any Christian church that doesn't believe in God, it seems a bit of an oxymoron to me. The Holy Trinity is another matter.

The looked after children (or previously looked after children) are a legal priority for most schools. Of course, some areas are less affected by this than others.

My local C of E even puts church applicants before non-anglican 'Looked after Children'. FFS

Church Applicants who are Looked After Children
Church Applicants in order of priority
Other Looked After Children
Local Applicants
Faiths Other than Christian
Other Applicants

What I've never understood is why when people are born into a religion they never seem to question that their faith is a matter of what their parents believed, and if they'd been born to different parents they likely wouldn't be of that faith. It's not been a conscious acceptance or personal decision, but they don't see that.

What I've never understood is why when people are born into a religion they never seem to question that their faith is a matter of what their parents believed, and if they'd been born to different parents they likely wouldn't be of that faith. It's not been a conscious acceptance or personal decision, but they don't see that.

Richard Dawkins makes this point about most people falling into a religion based on their geographical location / birthplace.
There are of course, lots of people who do choose a different religion for themselves, but most either go along with their upbringing, or just reject that in favour of being agnostic or atheist (imo).
It's understandable really - we are conditioned in all manner of ways - how to behave, how to dress, how to speak to others, manners... and if a family is religious, it's likely you'll be taken to a church and make friends there (or reject it once you're old enough).
We don't really question why we wear jeans, or why we don't wear a turban, it's just our 'norm', so it seems the same way with religion.

I’m not sure I can make assumptions on how this world came about, no one will ever know not in this lifetime and the lifetimes to come as we have no proof or evidence to suggest the start of this world. However I believe everything happens for a reason but not because someone is or has masterminded it, lets be real, can a mastermind plan really be created to last for so long it just seems impossible....So many events in this world which I’m sure were not planned for would have screwed it up years ago. I believe in fate I’m just not sure where it comes from. Many questions I often think about that always leave me with more questions than answers. Then I just think fuck it, what’s meant to be is meant to be. I have no issue in others beliefs and would never discourage anyone, I don’t agree when people try to shove beliefs and religion down your throat.

I think it was Unitarians (too late for me to trawl google), they were on 'The Big Questions' last year and their understanding was that bits of the Bible were metaphors, including the parts about the literal existence of a god. In much the same way Einstein mentioned god, it is just a name that represents the idea of goodness/wonder, not a physical representation of it.

mintich So we have moved from an atheist not being able to have a religious ceremony to atheists not being able to make a genuine vow to god. But I still disagree because I use god in vows occasionally eg 'oh for god sake', 'god help us', 'only god knows' and I genuinely mean the sentiment behind them.
The vows have meaning in and of themselves and do not have to have any connection to a literal deity. Obviously some fundamentalists might disagree but then they wouldn't allow abortion or gay marriage either. Being a cultural christian does not make you a hypocrite or your vows any less sincere in your desire to tell the truth in court, or to look after a child at a christening.

TheBrilliantMistake
I specifically said 'if you are making vows to a God'. Ergo is it's hypocritical. You can't be an atheist and make a vow to a God, certainly not with any sincerity
And I specifically disagreed with you. Kings and Queens have made vows to objects like a sword or crown. People have made vows to memories like their dead mother, and people make vows to an idea like a god. It does not have to literally exist. So an atheist can make a genuine vow with god in the sentence without having to believe god literally exists.

Its very common amongst Jewish atheists. And becoming more so in cultural Christians.

I said that schools (or my nieces school in particular) teach that atheists go through life without religious ceremony ie baptism, communion etc. Not that you weren't able to. You can do what you want.
I imagine most atheists wouldn't want to make a vow to God and so wouldn't have a religious ceremony for themselves. If you say you would then that's fine!

mintich Yes I get they might teach that but they would be wrong. Knowing many atheists in England its quite common to have religious ceremonies in your life because they have become culturally ingrained. A christening is a rite of passage for a new born, a church wedding or funeral, carol singing in December, Easter egg hunting... to just name a few christian ones I do. Religious ceremonies are very common amongst atheists in the modern world.

Most atheists dont give much thought to saying vows that have god in them, the vow is genuine, the god bit is just ceremonial. Quite happy to say vows to Thor, Zeus, the chocolate teapot or the FSM, its all just window dressing.

And I specifically disagreed with you. Kings and Queens have made vows to objects like a sword or crown. People have made vows to memories like their dead mother, and people make vows to an idea like a god. It does not have to literally exist. So an atheist can make a genuine vow with god in the sentence without having to believe god literally exists.

Nah, we are not talking about a vow with God in the phrase, we are talking about vows TO a God. You can't just disagree and reframe the initial assertion! That's called changing the goalposts.

You cannot make a vow to a God you do not believe in and the vow be sincere. It's illogical.
You can vow to look after the interests of a child, or vow to love your wife, etc etc, but you can't make a vow to God, or a vow that involves God or before God and mean it. It's hypocrisy.

If I vow not to drink or take drugs, then I take drugs, I can't say 'oh but I didn't mean that part, but sincerely meant the other'.
It's the same with a Christening. The entire ritual is based upon a cleansing by God.

I do agree that if some other religion has no God, of course an atheist can partake without hypocrisy, but any ritual that an atheist is involved in that is asking the atheist to acknowledge that God (e.g. a vow) is hypocrisy. It doesn't matter if one person thinks it's a literal God, or a metaphorical one.

Also, I'm not criticising those who do it. I've done it myself, but I do accept my own hypocrisy at 'going along with the ritual'. I didn't make a vow to be great to my godchildren (bit clue in the name there!), I made a vow to bring them up in the Christian belief! I had absolutely no intention of doing so.

I would assume by religious ceremony they mean the sacraments (could be wrong) not carol singing or Easter egg hunts.

mintich isn't saying that atheists don't go to religious ceremonies, just that they don't have any themselves.

And I'm sure using Gods name in the examples you have given isn't making a vow to Him.

These are two typical vows at a christening (for Godparents):

“Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith and walk with them in the way of Christ?”
“Will you care for them, and help them to take their place within the life and worship of Christ’s Church?”

There is no way an atheist means these vows. Their real intent IS to care for the godchild, but it's not to carry out these acts.

we are not talking about a vow with God in the phrase, we are talking about vows TO a God. I have friends who dont believe in any gods, atheists, they had a church wedding and made traditional vows TO a god. The priest was aware of their lack of belief. The bride believes god is a 'metaphor' for being a good person, that he isn't a real being. The groom doesn't care either way. It was a lovely wedding. No one ever said anyone was a hypocrite or insincere. So a school would be wrong to teach that being an atheist means not making traditional vows. Its no more ok to teach they are insincere to get married in a church than it is to teach that gay people are hypocrites to want to get married in a church.

I would assume by religious ceremony they mean the sacraments That I can agree with but it would be a stupid thing to teach. Is it your point that they should teach all the things atheists dont do? Like in sex ed, teaching why girls dont use urinals?

TheBrilliantMistake sorry you seem to have misinterpreted my post I was replying to a specific poster who said faith schools should not be state funded IE paid for by the tax payer if children of tax paying non faith parents cant get in and gave my reasons why I disagree with that argument.

I then responded to marchin1984 who says that non faith children who cant get into a faith school are being discriminated against.

I totally agree with your comment If the religious school just dropped that criteria, it wouldn't help, all that would happen is house prices around the school rise and the wealthier would eventually move in and dominate that school, because that's exactly what would happen if the RC school my great niece has just won a place at dropped the faith criteria, and I m very sure that the council estate my GN lives in would not be in the new catchment area.

Theres no "point" .. we were just discussing the fact that atheism is taught in RE now.
You seem to want to pick apart our conversation which is a shame as for once in this thread, everyone was sharing their views without arguing which was nice.

That was to walkingdeadfangirl

I can see why an atheist may want a church wedding but to actually say the vows, especially about lovingly accepting children from God and bringing them up by the laws of the church.

My friend is married to an atheist, when it came to baptising their child, he opted out the vows, her respectfully just remained silent instead of answering.

'Do you reject Satan?'
'And all his works?'
'And all his empty promises?'
'Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heavan and earth?'

Because how could an atheist possible agree to them?

I find the idea that atheists have church weddings and christen their children disrespectful.