To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

They also teach that atheists go through life without religious ceremony.

My nieces school also teach about humanism

Most atheist I know have their kids christened and marry in a church (first time around). Always laughed a little at this. I understand the nice venue and ceremony etc, but still, there's a certain hypocrisy in it.
Same with Godparents making promises about raising the child in a Godly manner etc.

My friend did exactly that. She always talks about being an atheist so I was surprised when she said she was having her son christened. She said it's because she wanted to have a celebration! I did wonder why she didn't just have a party.

I did it too. I don't deny the hypocrisy. It's a strange thing isn't it?

I know! Although I'm kind of doing it too. Having my daughter baptised and my brother is going to be godfather. He says he doesn't believe in organised religion but like some parts of some religions. I've told him to keep that quiet for the ceremony!
Tbh I was quite surprised he even said yes to being godfather!

I reckon (saving anyone on here’s presence) a lot of christenings are school based. Which I think is very distasteful. And church weddings are photograph based. Which is less distasteful - so long as I’m invited because I love weddings!

Hypocrites three we are! :-)

Life of PI philosophy - the hope that of something better

Not sure about the Christenings and school thing. Could be right, but because I have a sort of churchy background, I'm more exposed to people doing it for religious reasons, but others I know seem to do it because it's just 'what you do' and they seem to think it's a bit horrific to not be christened.

Churches, definitely based on venue / photos, but also a touch of extravagance too. Big church wedding seems to be metaphor for 'look how much we spent'

p.s. Can something be a 'bit' horrific?

And I don’t see how you can teach about atheism. “Atheists don’t believe in a god or gods” End of lesson!

The atheist/agnostic thing is very interesting. You can’t really call yourself an atheist because of the not proving a negative thing. Even Richard Dawkins says he’s an agnostic. I always say that I am an atheist because based on what I know now I really do have no doubts at all- but I accept that something might happen tomorrow to change that. It’s as likely as something happening tomorrow that shows that the sun sometimes rises in the West, but it is possible.

I'm the same, I don't believe their is no God. I can't prove their isn't one, but I'm basing my stance on what I believe to be a lack of evidence (indeed none at all).

Nothing is set in stone though. I reserve the right to change my mind.

Didn't get any of mine christened as not religious. Don't believe in heaven or hell. Been to many Christenings of non religious people though.

marchin1984 nothing to do with discrimination, if its unfair that a tax payer who has managed to buy into the area of their choice is denied a place in a tax funded school due to children meeting the religion criteria having priority then its equally unfair that a tax paying parent from a council estate or on a low salary cant get into a tax funded school because they cant buy into the area, there is no difference.

I'm confused.
Are you arguing that it's right if you can buy your way into an area, then that's good enough to be able to get into a school? That's often how it works now, but doesn't make it right.

But you're also arguing that someone can't get into a school because they don't meet the religious criteria.

If the religious school just dropped that criteria, it wouldn't help, all that would happen is house prices around the school rise and the wealthier would eventually move in and dominate that school.

Having the religious criteria, whilst discriminatory on religious grounds, does actually help less wealthy parents have access IF they meet the religious criteria.

It could theoretically be possible to scrap the religious schools, or at least their entry criteria, but it's much harder to prevent the house price issue (market forces and all that). The wealthy have, and probably will continue to have the best education opportunities. It's unfair, but it's always been the way.

They also teach that atheists go through life without religious ceremony
Atheism says nothing about religious ceremonies, all it says is that you dont believe there is enough evidence to believe in a god. No reason why an atheist can't go to, or participate in a religious ceremony.

You can’t really call yourself an atheist because of the not proving a negative thing
Of course you can, an atheist does not make any claims, there is no burden of proof. An inability to believe in a theists claim is NOT the belief in the opposite position. RD is very clear he is an agnostic atheist, as am I.

Atheism says nothing about religious ceremonies, all it says is that you dont believe there is enough evidence to believe in a god. No reason why an atheist can't go to, or participate in a religious ceremony.

It's not so much about not attending, but if you're an active participant making vows to God etc, then there's a hypocrisy to that.
Also it's not about not enough evidence to believe, it's about positive not believing there is a God. I'd say sitting on the fence due to lack of evidence (a perfectly viable option) is being agnostic. To me an atheistic is a step further removed who positive claims there is no God.

My damn auto correct is killing this, Apologies for typos.

“Are you arguing that it's right if you can buy your way into an area, then that's good enough to be able to get into a school?”

No.

That was in response to Oldsu's post by the way!

nothing to do with discrimination, if its unfair that a tax payer who has managed to buy into the area of their choice is denied a place in a tax funded school due to children meeting the religion criteria having priority then its equally unfair that a tax paying parent from a council estate or on a low salary cant get into a tax funded school because they cant buy into the area, there is no difference.

No, it's not the same, and I said why. One is religious discrimination, which is illegal in almost every other aspect of British life. The other is richer people get better stuff, well in line with the rest of British life.

That's not to say that I think catchment and wealth are what should determine school quality. I don't. I think school admissions should and could be made more fair to strip out the influence of wealth.

But only one of those criteria is illegal everywhere else in British life, and it's not wealth.

Faith schools in my area all have church attendance at the bottom of their admission criteria. I think this is the case in most faith schools.

Criteria are:
Looked after children/Service children
Siblings in catchment
Catchment
Siblings out of catchment
Faith out of catchment
Out of catchment.

Some PP are giving the impression that faith gets you in above all else. This isn't usually the case. It might be in a few, but not many.

but if you're an active participant making vows to God etc, then there's a hypocrisy to that Maybe, maybe not. Plenty of people believe different things. Just because you dont believe a literal god actually exists does not mean your a hypocrite when you say a vow.

And there are plenty of religions that dont have a god, so quite easy to have a genuine religious ceremony and be an atheist. There is even a Christian church in the UK that doesn't believe in a literal god. So it would be wrong to teach that atheists cant have a religious ceremony.

it's not about not enough evidence to believe, it's about positive not believing there is a God
Umm that would be an anti-theist. Which is not an atheist. An atheist does not make ANY positive claims. So if its going to be taught in schools I hope they get it right. Might be better for schools to teach secular morality, critical thinking and humanism, because atheism has very little to be taught.

“Faith schools in my area all have church attendance at the bottom of their admission criteria. I think this is the case in most faith schools.“

No it isn’t.

daffodildelight do you have a link to the data that supports your claim, "faith gets you in above all else. This isn't usually the case. It might be in a few, but not many", or was that just a your personal experience?