To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

Bertrand I do, too. I suppose I can sort of get my head around church weddings as being somewhere beautiful which a lot of hotels aren't necessarily but christenings I do not get at all. If someone has a belief then it is their belief and they should choose to be christened/baptised for themselves, not have it done for them.

Me too BertrandRussell.

I'm atheist.

Getting married in a church or christening my children is the equivalent of popping into the local mosque or Sikh temple for my wedding or to initiate my kids into the faith without actually believing in anything related to the faith and with no intention of having my marriage guided by Islam or Sikhism.

It's plain weird but it's very disrespectful. As an atheist I don't see other peoples religions as mine to dip in and out of when I fancy.

If both people are atheist I agree.
However if their partner is religious, I can see why people would.

An atheist friend started taking her kids to Sunday School, got them christened - she very openly told us it was so they'd get in to the faith school. I didn't go to the christening. It's hypocritical and I find it distasteful.

I'm completely atheist.
I simply do not believe. Maybe it's me and my lack of academic ability.

I think at a push there may have once been a chap who wondered and preached to all who'd listen. Simple people feared what he said and so followed. Overtime story's become exaggerated and all sorts are added to make them more dramatic.

That is my own view
Religion is just a fable that got blown out of all proportion.

It's hypocritical and I find it distasteful.

I find it distasteful that children from atheist families have fewer educational opportunities than children of christians.

I do, too. I suppose I can sort of get my head around church weddings as being somewhere beautiful which a lot of hotels aren't necessarily but christenings I do not get at all. If someone has a belief then it is their belief and they should choose to be christened/baptised for themselves, not have it done for them.

that's pretty much what I think too. I get the church at the wedding (pretty, grand etc etc etc), but not at christenings.

Other religions are available.

I find it distasteful that children from atheist families have fewer educational opportunities than children of christians

I don't know what you mean as most schools are filled with atheist children.

Did you mean atheist children cannot go to faith schools, which might happen to offer good educational opportunities? If so, that is true - but among those who can, they can be from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Meanwhile not all children can go to the majority of normal schools with the greatest educational opportunities, because those are usually in expensive to live in areas.

So it is especially distasteful that poor, disadvantaged children cannot get good educational opportunities in general.

It's a good idea to check the PP rates at successful oversubscribed faith schools before you go on about the opportunity they offer disadvantaged children.........

*It's hypocritical and I find it distasteful.

I find it distasteful that children from atheist families have fewer educational opportunities than children of christians.*

Me too speak. But as an atheist, I won't be pretending to believe something I don't, and pushing my children towards indoctrination, for a school place. When we bought our house, being able to go to non-faith schools was on our list. I appreciate not everyone can do the same, but the friend in question could have.

I find it distasteful that children from atheist families have fewer educational opportunities than children of christians

I agree that this is an issue (and don’t agree with school admissions based on faith). However, I apply the same principle to grammar schools and private schools - our education system isn’t fair across the board. I think faith schools are not intended to be “better” than other schools (plenty of the time they aren’t - I know of 4, 1 has a “good” ofsted, two are “satisfactory” and one is “inadequate”), just provide a religious foundation to the education, which parents who are religious will value, and parents who are not religious won’t, and therefore (usually) won’t want to send their children there.

Bertrand, I know what I'm talking about in the city where I live.

In the actual area where I live within that city, children from almost all the other areas, let alone the worst of them, wouldn't ever get a look in with the local 'good' schools.

Faith schools are only "better" if they are over subscribed. It's nothing to do with the the Christian ethos and everything to do with selection.

"Bertrand, I know what I'm talking about in the city where I live."

So you have outstanding faith schools that have they same level of PP children as other catchment schools? That's great news- I wish it was the same everywhere else!

They are very good schools and they have more PP pupils than the good schools in the expensive catchment areas.

WhT about the non faith schools in the same catchment area?

I don't believe in god (I also use the small g) ... however, some people do and if that makes they happy so be it; perhaps some people need something to hold on to/believe in to make life bearable or to believe that one day they might see loved ones that have died again, who knows.

I don't appreciate people trying to convince me that there is a god, and I don't try to convince those that believe that there isn't one - each to their own.

The more I listen to you, the more I am finding it odd that there are faith schools. (Speaking as a Catholic who loved my Catholic school) I wouldn't say it's easier for Christians per se, as I would only want my children to go to either a Catholic school or one that is non faith. I wouldn't want them at a c of e school so basically primary wise I think there are 2 for me to choose from . My little ones a baby so can't even be sure on catchment.
It would be a lot easier if they were all non faith like my secondary was! It's not like that affected my religion in any way

Boulty I think that too. Atheism doesn't offend me at all and I've studied science all my life.
Thing is none of us will know the truth as when we find out, we'll be dead! 😂

"Bernard": The faith schools in the same catchment areas are not good, however much PP they may have to try to redress the balance.

Take away the faith schools though, and the schools in the catchment areas where the poorer people live will not get any better. The only difference will be that now no one at all from those disadvantaged areas and families - the PP pupils in the faith schools - will get to go to a good school.

Those without the faith/other criteria but whose families have more money, however, can move to get to better schools, or already live near them.

The injustice is not in the faith schools' existence as much as in the way there are no schools in the disadvantaged parts which can offer a good education for disadvantaged children (from close to birth on).

Faith schools can give a sense of bonding and have high expectations for all.

Sorry, I meant the non faith (ordinary) schools in the same area are not good.

I'm a Christian and believe in God. To answer the points:

I do believe God looks over me individually. He cares about me and loves me. He gives life and breath every day. That isn't to say there isn't evil or I won't have doubts from time to time when life gets hard. Life is hard even as a Christian - yet I believe.

If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him - we live in an evil world and this isn't the way God desired the world to be. Sin entered in and man commits sin. God is loving - he is for those that love him and not against. There will be eternal life for all that come to him.

Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive. God loves those that believe in him and in the same way a Father loves his loving children. Yes, there will be hard times and death but we will be in eternity with the Father who love us. It is not all about the now. Faith is what you can't see. For those that believe in God, you have no desire to upset him.

I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort - faith is believing in what you cannot see. Just because God can't physically be seen, he can be seen in creation, miracles and when we wake every day with life.

I don't want to get into debates. Yet if anyone wants to ask me about my faith in God, feel free to pm me.

I'm struck by the fact that regardless of what faith or no faith someone has, people still have good things and bad things happen. It's not as though a particular faith seems to have all the good things happen because they worship harder or differently, or that atheists have all the bad things happen because they don't worship.

Basically can faith make a shred of difference in real terms or is it about mentally comforting yourself in the same way that other people find mental comfort in counselling or exercise or eating or painting or whatever else it is that people do for comfort? Yet religion could be considered a man-made structure, and the fact that there are many different ones instead of a single one, does someone deeply religious towards one faith not think it's odd that someone else can been as deeply religious towards another completely faith?

If one faith has an important figurehead and another doesn't, but both are fervently believed, which one is right? I don't mean by "judging", and I do know responses will be "all of them are right in their own ways", which I get, but putting that to one side for a moment, does the absence of a particular figurehead in a different religion to one's own not prove worrying that one of those religions believes something that isn't true?