To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

prayer is a form of power of thought and it absolutely does work but sometimes its peoples time to die and you cant change that.

I think there should be both. I loved my Catholic upbringing but dont think it should affect anyone else. If there were both schools you'd get your choice, I'd get mine.
With children, you choose everything else for them why not religion? The food they eat, the type of education they get, clothes they wear, their name. These things can change later.
For example my brother and I had the same upbringing, he no longer practices, I do. I wouldn't say he's an atheist as such, he almost chooses bit from each religion and different cultures (not sure what you label that!) Obviously that just our experience.

For any atheists, I'm interested in whether you would still want faith schools banned (assuming that's your view) if you could guarantee that there were enough places in a true non faith school for your children.

I would not want faith schools banned, but I would not want them funded with public money.

There is plenty opportunity for families to raise their children in a faith- that can be done at home, in churches.

Speak out yes all are good born free!

Also given the increasing multi cultural nature of UK society ( a great thing in my view) would you be happy to have state funded Islamic or Hindu schools too?

Arghhhhhhh all dc are born free

Faith schools are bit of a problem for me.
On the one hand, there's a need to educate our children on all manner of subjects, including more controversial etc like sex or events such as the holocaust etc, but there's also a danger with indoctrinating them into a belief system (even if it's with the best of intentions). We can end up teaching this is the 'right' kind of sex, and 'right kind of sexuality' and 'right approach to abortion' etc, all of which is under the guise of 'our God teaches us this'. Let us not forget it's often accompanied by 'if you follow the teaching you will be rewarded, and if you don't you will be punished or upset God' etc.

Yes I wouldn't mind schools of different faiths just as I don't mind non faith schools.
Im Catholic so don't have a huge choice of schools myself! Most are c of e here (primaries)
We had children of other faiths at my Catholic primary. I'm sure they would have preferred to be learning about their own religion

speakout public money comes from tax payers yes? so why should a tax payer have to fund a school that they cant get their kids into because they cant afford to live in the catchment area - its the same argument surely

Thebrilliantmistake that's my worry. I went to a Catholic primary but certainly never learnt that God may punish me, hell etc, ...It was more the love one another message that was pushed .
I would want to make sure that if I sent my daughter to a Catholic school, that it was modern like mine. My local church is pretty modern so thats hopefully a good sign!

RE: the sense of unfairness that faith schools are allowed to exist. (Though this is a digression from the original question it has cropped up.)

In my opinion the idea of it being terribly unfair that faith schools exist - on the grounds that not all children can go to these schools which are often rated as being very good - has not been balanced out by the consideration that a poor child could be more likely to be born a catholic, for example - and therefore get a chance to go to a good catholic school - than for that same (poor) child to be born, or move into, a middle class area, with a good school, where their parents could never, ever afford to live. You do not have to live near a faith high school to be allowed into it.

(Many catholics in the uk came, or come from from relatively poor, sometimes migrant, and ethnically diverse families.)

Another thing which may not be realised is that faith schools do also take children who are not of the same faith. For example a Catholic school may also have Muslim children attending.

The food they eat, the type of education they get, clothes they wear, their name.

mintich- but these are all "needs.

I wouldn't enrol my child into the labour party or take them to meetings of the young conservatives to instill that political instinct into their developing minds- it's not my place.
I may be a parent, but their political views are theirs to decide - not mine.
Young minds are impressionable and easy to sway.
Education about political systems and different religions is important, but to indoctrinate a child into that mindset is overstepping the mark.

My religious or political choices may not be theirs.

Faith schools are only good if they are oversubscribed. If they aren't, they just reflect the catchment.

And it's always worth looking at the Pupil Premium rates in oversubscribed faith schools. Very revealing!

public money comes from tax payers yes? so why should a tax payer have to fund a school that they cant get their kids into because they cant afford to live in the catchment area - its the same argument surely

The same reason you fund a hospital you won't ever use or a police service in a neighbouring county etc.
If you want to decentralise the funding, then you have another problem that a wealthy region will have better services and a deprived area will struggle to fund very much at all.

Why do most christians ignore the bible and not bother with church? If most christians dont understand this stuff, why would anyone else be bothered with it?

There has been tens of thousands of gods over history, most have their own variation of hell and most get pissed off when you worship a different god. So logically speaking if you want to hedge your bets against hell you should not worship any of them. That way if there is an after life you will be able to say "at least I didn't worship one of your rivals/false idols". If you bet all your money on one particular god then odds are your picked the wrong one and your almost certainly going to hell.

What do you mean by Christians?

There's the nominal Christian who thinks they are Christian because they are white, English and probably christened in a church. That's not 'Christian' in the sense we are talking here.

Then there's the 'born again' Christian who has reached an adult age and believes Jesus died for them and talks to God through prayer etc. They have been 'saved' because they accepted Jesus as their saviour at some point in their life. Many go to a church, some have relapsed and don't bother anymore but are still considered 'Christians'

I think there should be state funded atheists only libraries that people of faith are not allowed to use. After all- there’s one in the next town they can use- it’s only 10 miles away.

public money comes from tax payers yes? so why should a tax payer have to fund a school that they cant get their kids into because they cant afford to live in the catchment area - its the same argument surely

no, it's absolutely different. there is no such thing as discrimination based on wealth and catchment. yet in every other segment of british life you can't discriminate by religion.

Would anyone be offended by a tax payer funded Scientology school, where they would teach them the ethos of Xenu?
Or what about a Pastafarian school? They are as ridiculous as a Christian school.

Walkingdeadfangirl

Exactly.

I don't mind our kids being taught about religion - just not being taught A religion.
Fortunately my own children are now grown up, but the same will apply to grandchildren.

I believe schools have been instructed to teach about atheism now - which is a good thing, but it wasn't always the case.

Yeah they get taught about atheism in RE now.

I believe schools have been instructed to teach about atheism now
What would they teach? "Atheists dont believe there is enough evidence to believe in a (particular) god". That's it, there is nothing else to teach about them.

Unless they go through all the religions individually?

Christians are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods (list them all?)
Muslims are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods ...
Jews are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods ...
Scientologists are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods ...
Sikhs are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods ...
Rastifarins are atheists to about approx 10,000 gods ...
'Atheists' are atheists to about approx 10,001 gods ...

I would guess they do precisely that - discuss the lack of evidence and the scientific approach. You could make a good lesson or two from I would expect - much like this debate here.

There are lot of seemingly miraculous things in life, or inexplicable phenomena. Love and grief (bereavement) are two very difficult emotions to fully explain in a scientific way. A group of enthusiastic kids would manage to discuss it for ages I would think.

Guess it comes down to how a teacher wants to present it and I expect there are some guidelines on the atheism part. A teacher would know more.

Also I think a lot of agnostics call themselves atheists particularly younger people. A few I've spoken with certainly sound more agnostic that atheist once they start discussing stuff, my own kids included.