To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

Bertrand youve misunderstood the numbers. Faith schools count for 30% of schools, not 30% more.
There is only one faith secondary in my town the rest are non denominational schools

Can you send me a link to one of these schools?

If they are state funded they won't be non faith schools.

www.prestonschool.co.uk/ here's the school I went to! Non denominational. State funded. We didn't set foot in church once.

mintich you said you had 3 non faith schools in your town.

So you have faith schools, non denominational schools and 3 non faith schools?

Secondary schools. There are 4, one faith (not my Faith) and 3 non denominational

mintich you are confusing the term non faith and non denominational.

They are not the same thing.

A non denominational school is a christian school with no fixed allegiance to any particular church.
Non denominational schools are still required by law to have religious observance and " lead active worship".

There are no state funded secular or non faith schools in the UK.

So when you said you had 3 non faith schools in your town- that's not actually true.

“Bertrand youve misunderstood the numbers. Faith schools count for 30% of schools, not 30% more.”

That makes no sense.

The school I went to is non faith. We were taught religious studies but there was no praying, no church going so I would consider that non faith.
I assume if they still teach religious studies you would class that as non denominational? Or non faith?

The school I went to is non faith.

I suspect that is also not true.

I am guessing you went to a non denominational school. The fact that you call it a non faith school does not make it true.

You were lucky that you went to a non denominational school that was light on he religious aspect. Not all non denominational schools are the same.
I went to a non denominational school- we had to say the Lord's prayer every morning in class.
My kids went to a non denominational school and were subjected to a lot of religious indoctrination.

The term non faith is a bit of s misnomer, and I think that is where most confusion lies.
It ought to be non specific faith, or multi faith.
That said, if a secular school did exist, would it still teach about the existence of religion and cover the fundamentals of different faiths?

By light on religion, there was literally no religion besides Religious Studies. So how do they get away with that if there are no non faith schools? I suspect they aren't the only school doing this as I know my local secondary don't go to church or pray etc

mintich yes you are right- my kids' secondary school ( non dom) delivers no indoctrination.
It seems to be at the discretion of the headmaster.
I know of three non dom primary schools which deliver a huge amount of religious indoctrination- my own kids' school included- the head is a born again type and actively chooses teaching staff who have his faith.

His delivery of christian indoctrination is protected by law.

It's a lottery as to how the school interprets the law.

Thebrilliantmistake I think you are right. Should be nonspecific faith. We had all faiths at my schools which I would guess is why we never prayed or went to church...which church would we have went to? I couldn't even tell you what the most local church is to that school

And if I know of 3 non doms that are heavy on religion I suspect this is echoed throughout the country.

There ARE non faith schools, but contrary to their name, they aren't secular. They still have a prescribed curriculum that has to incorporate multiple faiths. It's a fine distinction, but it's really validating the idea of religion/s which some parents object to. The actual extent of this validation differs from school to school, ranging from barely mentioned right through to feeling like a church school.

Yep that's what I mean by non Faith, not that it's written on the door as that. I suppose it makes it hard to choose a school as you won't know what's ahead of you until you join, unless you are lucky enough to know a current attendee.
Even though I am Catholic I have the same problem. My primary and connected church (In Scotland not Somerset) was very modern and spread a very good message. To be honest it wasn't rammed down our throats at all . My brothers primary was the opposite.
There is a Catholic primary here, but I wouldn't know what the message is from them as I don't know anyone who attends which would be a worry if I sent my daughter there.

Any school which does not hold assemblies of a “broadly Christian nature” is in breach of it’s statutory duty. The fact that many schools do breach that duty is irrelevant.

Christians tend to gloss over this because it suits them. As thy also gloss over the undoubted fact that in some places, a child could be refused a place at a School they live next door to and have to take a bus to the next village because they do not meet faith based admission criteria - passing in the journey a child who ^did* meet the requirements who lives in the next village.

I agree that's awful. What I was talking about were my two friends who are kind of doing the reverse. They are not baptised to any faith, but have decided to become Catholic (so both mum and baby are being baptised) purely because the Catholic primary is seen as "posher" . Both schooks have outstanding ofsted reports.Their local primary isn't affiliated to any church. They both claim to be atheists but are taking different views to get into this school. I find that odd as I would by fake a faith to get into a school I thought made me look more middle class!
I get this is a very specific scenario!

I find people finding God for school admission purposes outrageous. But I find people of faith having a choice of 30% more schools outrageous too. And I find compulsory Christian worship in non faith state schools outrageous.

People move to specific areas in order to gain access to a school.
People pretend to be interested in God and attend church in order to meet the entry criteria for church schools.

It's a sad reflection on the lengths people will go to to get a better education for their children, but also a sad reflection on the varying standards of education too. That said, it does not always hold that a church school has great teaching methods just because it gets good results, or that a school has poor methods because it gets poor results... it's far more complex than that. A church school invariably has parents who are a more pushy and likely to encourage their children more, whilst a poorly performing school's intake is likely to have many more parents who don't give a toss. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

It's hideous.

I tried my hardest to try to get my kids' school to back off on the religious front.

It was hitting my head against a brick wall.

I became interested when my kids would come home with bible stories. My kids thought they were history lessons. Noah's ark etc.
I started working as a parent helper ( and did for several years) in different classes and was astounded at the casual religious reference in every day class talk. " Do your best for jesus". God has been kind to you today- you scored 10/10 for your spelling"

Assemblies were religious- 50% of the content was praying, telling of parables, local clergy were often present and led active worship- singing songs such as " Jesus is my superhero" etc.
I didn't want to take my kids out of assemblies as they were important to the school community- many awards were given out, for " Being helpful", " showing friendship", trying hard in maths etc, so all kids were given awards at some point on a regular basis which was lovely.

I was elected as a school governor for a few years and tried to talk to the head about the amount of indoctrination the kids were having. He ( and a born again) said the subject was not up for discussion and he had the right to make these decisions without the board of governors.. I talked to other parents, and while many agreed, they did not want to be the ones to stick their heads above the parapit, and posssibly having their children suffer as a result. The head was known for favouritism and while generally a good head teacher had a really nasty little streak in him.
I wrote to the local Education Authority about my concerns, and had a meeting. I was told that the head had the right to deliver religious instruction if he wished- in fact had a legal obligation to do so.
So again a blank.

The school was in a small village, the next school was 20 miles away, OH worked locally and I was caring for a disabled parent, so moving was not an option.

I found the whole situation frustrating. The best I could do was to have a daily "deprogramming" of my kids and lots of discussion about faith in general.
My son did a religious studies A level and is still interested in religion, but I am happy that my kids are both firmly atheist.

It's a myth that it's the ethos of faith schools that makes them better. Undersubscribed faith schools are no better or worse than any other catchment school. Any oversubscribed school with hoops to jump through will by definition be "better" than one that selects on distance alone.Whatever the hoop is.

BertrandRussel My great niece got her place in the local RC school it was the school I went to over 50 years ago, the school where my sisters went to in fact all the immediate members of my family went because we are practising Catholics, when I went to that school I lived on the local council estate where most of my family still live, however I moved nearer the school in the 80s when I bought the house I still live in. It used to be 100% Catholic intake now its only 40% and has children of other faiths

Since I lived in the area house prices have rocketed, people are desperate to get into the area due to an outstanding school, but its not the RC school they want to get into but another local outstanding school with no religious criteria. Until last year these parents couldn't give a flying about the RC school because they could get into the school they wanted, however a couple of years ago a gated estate was built with million quid houses, snapped up by families who wanted to buy into that school, this year a few parents missed out on both the non dom school and the RC school, they face the prospect of sending their children to an underperforming school that they don't want.

So SUDDENLY the RC school is a problem SUDDENLY its unfair that Catholic Children have priority, SUDDENLY they want the RC school to just take pupils from a small catchment area which BTW would not include the local Council estate, what they want is to deny children like
my GN a place because its not fair that their faith gives them an advantage, well I don't think its fair that children of wealthier parents have the advantage of getting into a good school when other children lose out because their parents cant afford the house prices.

Do what you like with your bingo card BTW as I have no intention of justifying any thing to you

Exactly, in a perfect world there would be faith schools and true non faith schools so that there was an equal choice.
I think Catholic children should get priority at a Catholic school (and same for other faiths) but I do think there should be true non faith schools out there. Just because I believe doesn't mean others should, that's up to them.
But like was said earlier it's a lottery to how each school is run.

mintich in my "perfect world " there would be no faith schools.

People would stop indoctrinating young minds and leave them to choose for themselves whether or not they want to choose a religion as a consenting adult.

Leave the slate clean. All kids are born atheists.