To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I think God did show himself - he came as Jesus in human form. He even said 'I am the father are one' - the thing is, that even when God was on earth, many people didn't acknowledge and believe in him.

It's interesting to know what exactly people want to see to believe.

Thomas, who doubted, said he couldn't believe in the resurrection unless he saw Jesus with the wounds of the cross and put his hand in his side where the spear had been. When he saw Jesus, he did this and then fell on his knees.

I'd say, that if you want to see God, ask him - you might just be surprised!

Oh yes, poor old Thomas. How very dare he ask for a bit of proof. Blind faith is what's really wanted.

Strangely those who've seen the face of God can't agree on what he looks like.
Many still think Jesus was white.

There was no rebuke or “how dare he” when Thomas asked for proof.
He asked and Jesus showed him.

ChocolateWombat

You have to be joking, surely. “God/Jesus” shows himself to half a dozen tent dwellers 2000 years ago...and that should be enough? What more do people want?

Most of the people who heard about this so-called resurrection at the time didn’t believe it, but we should?

Come on, now.

Doubting Thomas proves the idiocy of faith. Jesus didn’t mind providing evidence in that instance, did he?

"There was no rebuke or “how dare he” when Thomas asked for proof.
He asked and Jesus showed him."

It wasn't quite as simple as that. Jesus made it very clear that the people who believed without proof were more blessed than Thomas.

I was baptised a Catholic from birth into an Irish, Catholic family. When I had children I had them baptised, then they made their First Holy Communion, and went to a Catholic primary school but I began to feel disillusioned. By the time my eldest was 12/13 and questioned things, I couldn’t answer her with conviction and she had a very scientific and intelligent mind. We didn’t go ahead with confirmation for that reason and now I only go into a church to light s candle for my DM who was Catholic to the end. I feel culturally Irish ☘️ Catholic if that’s possible.

John 20: something to something

This (Christopher Hitchens video) nicely sums up why I can't understand why people believe in God.

Am also very much of the opinion that prayer is a way to do nothing, while still getting the nice warm feeling that you are helping.

Jesus was quite sarcastic when he said Thomas had seen and believed, but those who believed without seeing were blessed.
Perhaps I am doubly blessed for not seeing and not believing.

Am also very much of the opinion that prayer is a way to do nothing, while still getting the nice warm feeling that you are helping.
It might be, but as I posted earlier in desperation many turn to prayer as a last resort. It's not a warm feeling and it's not a way to do nothing. It's absolute fear and plea that IF there's any God out there, do something.

I can't say that everybody in the face of death or fear of it would pray, but I can say many do, even atheists. It needn't be their own death either.

It's absolute fear and plea that IF there's any God out there, do something.

To paraphrase Dan Dennett, would you also sacrifice a goat?

I hope the OP got the answer they were looking for

To paraphrase Dan Dennett, would you also sacrifice a goat?

If there was a goat available and it was reasonably common, I think many would yes.
Ask people who work in Emergency Services how common this is - grown men who would normally curse the very thought of a God can turn to prayer when their partner, or children are on the verge of dying. I'm not making it up, it happens. I've done it myself.

I don't know why it happens, I can only guess, but I think it's purely down to desperation. In the absence of any other hope, many people end up praying for what they consider to be a miracle. If someone then comes out of an operating theatre alive, then of course, that can be put down to the great work of medical staff and not an actual miracle, but prior to that, many atheists pray.

I'm with you OP. It's astonished me for years that - in the face of reason and logic - people still live their lives according to scripture written by humans at least a millennia ago.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone who believes, it's a free world in my view and you can believe in anything you like (as long as you keep it to yourself) but I don't understand how people can believe so wholeheartedly in something that has no evidence whatsoever, no logical basis or reasoned argument. Something that in fact had a purpose as a tool to keep tribal types following the same basic rules so that a society could form, but now serves no purpose it would seem, except to divide people and nations.

It's strange as I said upthread I am no longer a practising Catholic but still find comfort in gong into a church(when empty, not during mass), mainly for the peace and to think of my DM. I used to see so many people at mass that were a bit mean spirited in RL. I met my non religious DH who really is the kindest, most tolerant man. It's nothing to do with religion, unless religion is being the best human you can be.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone who believes, it's a free world in my view and you can believe in anything you like (as long as you keep it to yourself) but I don't understand how people can believe so wholeheartedly in something that has no evidence whatsoever, no logical basis or reasoned argument.

That's the problem. They have evidence in their own 'self'. It's not scientific evidence or evidence that you and I can observe. They believe they have God's ear, and that their lives are aided by God. It's not blind faith to them (only to us).

Let me put it another way. How do you prove you love someone? How do you feel it? or 'know' it? It's indescribable really. There's absolutely no evidence for the existence of love. All we have is a range of behaviours that we associate with this mystical connection with other person.

As an atheist, that's the way I've rationalised it, and it makes sense to me. I don't think there is a God, but I do understand it, and how the evidence is in their own hearts. No amount of someone telling you that you don't really love someone is going to persuade you otherwise.

@TheBrilliantMistake Thank you for taking the time to try to help me understand the mindset. I guess I'm just one of those people whose brain demands evidence for any assertion (I also fact check most memes I come across as I can't bear the idea that I'm sharing hoax or inaccurate information!)

I wish I could just accept what others do sometimes as it certainly does seem to offer comfort and security, but I see so many inconsistencies and prejudice in most holy books that make it clear that they were written by human beings! (Yes, I've read the Bible and the Quran - again, I feel the need to know what I'm talking about! 🤓)

I like the association you make with the feeling of love - though I truly don't understand how someone could base their lives, their worldview and their future on such an ephemeral feeling. There are so many psychological studies of how the feeling of 'faith' is created in the brain (the endorphins are very similar to love actually!) that it's hard to see it as something manufactured by a higher being. Loved the Derek Brown exercise where he actually gave someone faith in God, if you've seen it?

Derek Brown Sorry...I know that was a typo. It made me laugh because he really doesn’t look like a Derek!

I saw a couple of programs where he debunked the religious aspects of euphoria, or at least explained how the phenomenon can be manipulated. Rock concerts / sporting events / large scale remembrance services etc can have some very profound emotional effects on large groups in the same way that many people describe a religious experience.

It’s indisputable that people who believe are generally more accepting of terminal illnesses etc and I think god, at the simplest level, as a benevolent, guiding, watchful force is a really nice idea. Which is exactly why so many gods have been created for so many cultures and so many ages. When humans feel powerless it’s important for some to believe that random, terrible events have meaning and there’s a greater plan.

The job of organised religion, mind you, has been to control female sexuality and is sponsored by patriarchy.

The job of organised religion, mind you, has been to control female sexuality and is sponsored by patriarchy

I wouldn't say that was its sole job. Just one of its goals. I think by and large it's been there to appease and manipulate the masses as a whole. But since it's predominantly men calling the shots, the inevitable consequence is keeping women towards the bottom of the hierarchy.

Even in 2018, it's through gritted teeth that women are given any serious consideration. At the ground level it's all lovey dovey and women are valued, but if you look at the synod or upper echelons of almost all churches, it's male dominated, sometimes exclusively male.

I am sorry I have not read through most of the thread but I personally find it harder to believe the universe and big bang, which most scientists agree occurred, came about randomly, especially when the odds for all the necessary laws of physics such as force of gravity had to have their numbers so exquisitely balanced by ten to to the trillions for the universe to form after the Big Bang. Furthermore, if everything according to the naturalist view is just physical matter and energy, love, beauty, joy, evil are all just illusions at heart.

I haven’t gone through your valid objections OP line by line, although if you do some reading there are people down through the ages who debate the problem of suffering and many of the other objections you raise, I am just sharing a general outline of why I have faith. Faith is never certainty and some areas there will never be clear answers.

There are aspects of life that to me points to something beyond our physical existence. In this 30 minute talk that I will link to below this speaker - who hosts a weekly UK show getting Christian thinkers, people of other faiths and highly respected atheists to discuss their different world views- goes through 3 main reasons which makes him believe in God. They are very briefly:

God explains human existence. It’s incredible that the universe including us even exists. For example, as touched upon above, for the universe to have been created and not been destroyed after the Big Bang it is stated some 30 or so fundamental numbers such as the force of gravity are so finely balanced (with crazily high odds that rule out simple chance) that the tiniest change would have meant the universe would have not come about but imploded
God explains human purpose. If atheism is true then right, wrong, beauty and love are illusions we've invented. But few of us really believe that. Our deep sense of purpose only makes sense if God exists.
God explains human value. Most of us feel a human has innate value, created free, equal and with inherent dignity. Yet according to a naturalistic view ultimately - even taking into account evolution probably made us social animals and we learnt cooperation benefits us - there is no reason why all humans should be equally valuable. Likewise there is no objective morality in the naturalist view. Yet though are many grey areas amongst different cultures and people’s views on different aspects of ethics, there still are a few things that most of us are inherently wrong. Where does this innate feeling come from? A theist would say God.

Link to Justin Brierley’s talk vimeo.com/259279321

I don’t expect you or others to suddenly be persuaded by the above and there are many alternative view points and counter arguments, atheists and theists debate these arguments back and forth all the time, but I just wanted to share why some of us conclude God is the best explanation for why we and the universe exist. All the above of course is just looking at the evidence that points to the existence of God, not the claims of different religions which would require much more discussion.

"Religion is the opium of the people"

Basically life's shit, but hey don't complain and you can get into heaven!