To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

No the thread turned very quickly into a "bash the Christians," it certainly wasn't about Christian privilege. But if you start making it all about Christianity, naturally other faiths will come into it. Why on earth not. It wasn't meant to be just about Christianity. Atheists again!

Faith.

Having faith that there is a God.

Maybe we can get black on track and say this:

• If you believe in God (or a god) then it's likely you will have seen or felt what you believe to be evidence to support that belief. A miracle, a feeling of wellbeing attributed to God's influence in your life, seeing aspects of the world through fresh eyes).

• It's unlike that the 'evidence' that convinces your soul will convince science. There are no irrefutable miracles or events that science can only put down to God. Plenty of inexplicable events and 'miraculous' recoveries from illness, but none which can be proven to be Godly.

• If atheists and believers agree on something, it's that the world has freewill (in as much as mankind has an influence on events). The difficulty comes when bad things happen and believers put that down to the sins of man, but when good things happen, it's often attributed to God's grace). It looks like cherry picking to me, but that's a personal view.

I don't think Christianity condones killing 'in its name' any more than Islam does

I can see why Christianity is discussed, but there are many different religions within it, which all hold different views.

*back on track

No the thread should have stuck to the ops question. Very early on i said that I believed in God but i respect atheists views too. Religion shouldn't have come into it. Is that clearer.

Fucking hell!

Are there any Muslims on this thread? If there are, we’d be delighted to discuss their ideology with them.

I can’t see the value in discussing it with someone whose only real knowledge seems to be terrorism and cutting people’s hands off.

It seems, alas, that so far it’s just Christians. So, guess which Bronze Age mythology we’re going to discuss?

Wow speakout so we're all to blame for what's going on, good grief.

logicalmum- yes- a great deal.

Patriarchy is the foundation of christianity.
Many people in society suffer as a result.

Mostly not straight rich men however. Funny that.

I didn't take it off track if that's what you're suggesting.

I don't think Christianity condones killing 'in its name' any more than Islam does

First you come on and huffily take exception to anyone saying that Christians are all unintelligent. Which, actually, nobody did.

Now you wish to inform us that Christianity does not condone killing more than Islam does. Which, actually, nobody suggested. Rather the opposite.

Are you on the wrong thread or have you mislaid your reading ‘specs?

Faith is a tricky term.

I know many Christians who absolute BELIEVE in God, they don't have faith.
They have faith that God will provide or guide them to make the right choices in life.

Of course there is a lot of 'faith' involved, but they have certainty in God.

Maybe a better way to explain that is:

They are certain God exists, but they do not always know the will of God. They have faith that he will bestow knowledge of his will as and when it is required particularly when it comes to their personal journey with God.

Dearie me. Good job we don't all take that attitude.

Which atheist virw do you respect?

I know many Christians who absolute BELIEVE in God, they don't have faith

Huh? Faith is a stand-in for evidence not belief.

It's the usual nasty sneer thread by atheists as usual. i'm hiding it, going round and round in circles. How you atheists love an argument. Something tells me you aren't all fully convinced, why else drone on so much. Bye.

Why do people believe- for many it is the glue that binds them to their family , society even their ancestors.
Without religion then life just appears an infinite nothingness. That is why it will never disappear. Replacing religious belief with a belief of nothingness that gives nothing back is never going to be universal. It doesn't really matter how logical the belief is, the fact is religious belief gives so many benefits such as longer life expectancy and better health as well as a sense of community that atheism will never have.

First you come on and huffily take exception to anyone saying that Christians are all unintelligent. Which, actually, nobody did.

Firstly, I didn't say anyone had said that on this thread did I, it is something which people tend to imply - the same way in which religious people tend to assume atheists life's are meaningless, which I said I didn't agree with. When did I come on and huffily take exception??

Now you wish to inform us that Christianity does not condone killing more than Islam does. Which, actually, nobody suggested. Rather the opposite.

Secondly this is how I view logicalmums posts. She is quite happy to avoid all knowledge of killing within Christianity, yet keeps bring up Islam killings - neither religion condone these. I have no idea why you seem so touchy about it?

For the large part, in the US and UK, we're exposed to aspect of Christianity more than other religions, and thus we're au fait with it. It's inevitable that on a religious or Godly topic we'll use Christianity as an example because most of us have anecdotal experience of it. I spent the first 25 years of my life heavily involved with the church (won't go into details), so I'm going to have a view tainted by my own personal experience. It's not targetting Christianity.

I would have far less confidence discussing Islam's finer points because I've never read the Quran nor have I experienced the finer points of Muslim life.
By 'Christian' and 'Muslim', I am referring to practicing religious believers, not the nominal element.

Christians in my life know 100% that they are right.
Zero tolerance for internal debate.

This is where the dissonance happens.

I don't have religious faith. My understanding of the world is being constantly updated. I am open to change, to challenge, I think that makes for a healthy open mind, that we constantly re-evaluate our world views.

Those with faith don't do this.

They " know" the truth. God exists. Not open to challenge. Jesus died for us.
All this written in stone.

Brittle. Unfixed.

Quite scary actually.

The problem is IF you believe in Christianity ergo God, then you're either ' 'saved' or not. There's not middle ground.
In their hearts and minds (of the lovely people I know), they are upset you are not saved - and I can understand that. They want to save you too and therein lies the problem.

If you have a Christian friend, and you're an atheist, you will always be a work in progress for them. I don't say that as a criticism, it's simply something that's always there. They might not ram it down your throat. Some might never mention it at all, but they will pray for you, and long for you to accept Jesus and be 'saved'.

I liken it to the parents who never quite accept their children's partner is good enough for them. It'll be a lifelong niggle for the parents no matter how well they hide it.

TheBrilliantMistake yes I agree. I have a deeply religious family and they worry about me and my children.

We are unsaved, and we are also fornicators in their eyes.

I am sure they mean well but they can fuck off.

Christians in my life know 100% that they are right
Zero tolerance for internal debate

Those with faith don't do this. (Speak 16.30)

This is not necessarily true at all Speak. Many religious people, even and especially priests, constantly reevaluate and struggle.

Some deeply religious people even experience the "Dark Night of the Soul".

"And so, unto all those who believeth in God and pestereth others to walk in His footsteps, I say verily unto thee... fuck off"
Book of Speakout chapter 2 verse 52.

Sorry, Speak 16.30 was explaining that:
"My understanding of the world is being constantly updated. I am open to change, to challenge, I think that makes for a healthy open mind, that we constantly re-evaluate our world views"..........."Those with faith don't do this"

TheBrilliantMistake - brilliant.