To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

How any one can think of blasting Christians while all that (my list) is going on in the world is beyond me...... and mac why should anyone call me racist when i haven't said anything racist. But the real reason is probably due to the fact that to call me racist would in fact be calling themselves that because of their anti Christian talk. The irony would not be lost it seems.

But the thing is, i've never called any atheist a "bigot" or anything else for that matter. I've said that both opposing views should be respected. So there's no "anomaly" in my case at all.

Come on logicalmum, be reasonable.
In 1995, 8000 Bosnian Muslims were killed. Many of those who carried out the killings are still alive. In my view, that's recent enough history to be considered relevant to the current generation.

Now, in your defence, I would not consider those perpetrators 'born again' style Christians, but you've chosen to use atypical Muslim extremism in your evidence, so I think it's fair to include atypical Christian extremism in mine.

I know you are arguing the 'right now', but in your evidence you're using 2017 figures, so it's not actually 'right now' is it? Seems only fair that 1995 is as valid to use right?

In this instance, I actually agree with you... in the current 2018 climate, Islam is killing more. I'm just against the way you're dismissing other recent history when the perpetrators are still living and the effects are still tangible for hundreds of thousands of Muslims.

I won't even start on the political and economic persecution / exploitation many Muslims suffer at the hands of Christians (and yes, it's reciprocated in part).

The stance you're taking is 'Right now, Christians are good and some Muslims are bad'. To what end is this argument made?

So by your logic we should completely and utterly forget about any murders/rapes and crimes because something ‘worse’ is happening in the world

Green i've already given a few reasons why i believe. Why don't you NOT believe.

Are these "rapes, murders and crimes being claimed by any particularly religious group. Otherwise your point isn't sensible.

logicalmum- Humans are committing these horrible acts, just because they claim to have a certain religion doesn't mean that that religion is fully accountable for it?
You don't like that people are doing this with Christianity yet will happily do the same with Muslims?

brilliantmistake i used 2017 because it's the most recent. How could i use this year when we're only in march. But if you like i'll go back 20 years. I'm prepared to agree with you if you can produce anything like a similar list of large scale Christian atrocities in the past 20 years.

Logicalmum,

8000 Muslims killed by Christians - pure genocide. It's only 23 years ago. It can't be dismissed. Those victims had children, relatives, loved ones. There's going to be a fair few upset Muslims.

You can't sweep it under the carpet.

I don't believe for a moment the perpetrators were 'born again' Christians, but do you think the victims' families make that distinction?

I haven’t seen any reasons at all.
I don’t believe because
There are older religions with older texts before Jesus, so if god created the earth why didn’t Jesus call everyone to him.
God says that everyone is a sinner so a baby who has been shaken to death is a sinner, he stands by and watch’s innocent children be raped and killed, they don’t have free will to get out of the situation.
The bible states he cursed Adam and Eve and is generally egotistical and cruel, why would a god be like that?
There’s evidence including geology, fossils, dinosaurs, species that were here before us.
There’s evidence that we share traits with other mammals like apes.
There’s evidence of cavemen evolving into humans as we know them.
Why, if we are all descended from Adam and Eve are we across the world living completely separate lives from other countries?
Why would a god punish every single person who will ever live just because two people failed his temptation test?
Why are there so many different stories about different gods long before your god came along?
With so many different religions what makes you think yours is the right one?
I believe in some things that we can’t see/feel based on my own experiences but I just can’t fathom there being a god.

And i'm not taking any such stance at all, i'm pointing out the facts.

Logicalmum- why are you so selective in the points you address?

So because people are murdering more people in the name of Islam we should forget that people murdered in the name of Christianity?

The Sabbath law is not really just to big up God either, it is really to teach us that our bodies were not designed to work 24/7 and benefit from a 'day of rest'.

Tell that to the bloke god ordered to be stoned to death for collecting sticks on the sabbath!

I've given you one.. 8000 in 1995.

Are you seriously going to try and win on numbers now? is 8000 Muslim deaths in an act of genocide not a large enough figure to convince you that there is no moral high ground to be taken?

If you provide 8001 Christians deaths will you feel vindicated? please tell me otherwise.

It's like me saying 'kids, Sunday is no tech day, it's healthy for you to have 1 day a week of your devices' and then when I find ds on his iPhone under the covers I proceed to bludgeon his brain out.

brilliant mistake have you got any more, because you've pointed out one atrocity. What is it about the truth you don't like, and why in the name of goodness would you appear to be siding with islamic extremists, because that's what it looks like when you down play something in that way.

Numbers? don't be ridiculous. How naive to suggest that muslim extremism isn't a worldwide problem right now.

Oh logicalmum you really don’t get it do you.
A person who Murders one person is not less evil than one who murders ten, they’re both murderers. Someone who murders in 2018 isn’t worse than someone who murdered in 1900.
Other people have come on and been lovely and explained their faith with grace, you have basically said ‘I’m right you’re wrong and I hate muslims’ without even attempting to have coherrant discussion with anyone. For someone who is apparently a Christian you’re quite unpleasant

And it's you trying to win on numbers by searching for that one to downplay what i said. But not acknowledging the atrocities i've mentioned. Shameful.

The crusades, 30 year war, French wars of religion, millions and millions and millions killed in the name of your god but hey it’s not happening today so it doesn’t count right

green other people INCLUDING me have come on and explained their faith, and in a very reasonable way, look back and check if you don't remember....Don't give me that "it's just you" BS. You have deliberately picked apart all my very reasonable posts, why, i don't know. It is you who "really don't get it", like i said before, leave me alone, stop hounding me, you're embarrassing yourself with your constant nit picking. I really don't wish to converse with you.

Nobody is disputing the issue of one evil is no worse than another except you, because according to you it is only Christians who are the bad ones., but you took issue with me pointing out the fact that other religions have a bad side. That's the bit you didn't like.....Oh the absolute irony of you saying that.

green of course it makes a difference it doesn't matter today. The evils of the past certainly shouldn't happen today. We should learn from the evils of the past. Unfortunately not everyone has.

Siding with Islamic extremists? Really? it's come to that accusation now?

You're not listening at all.

YOU have chosen to suggest Islam is killing more than Christians 'right now' (true). YOU chose to use 2017 figures as evidence (which nobody has disputed).

I have chosen to question the following:

1. 'Right now' is opportunistic and completely ignores pretty recent atrocities that still affect many. I gave you an example of 8000 deaths as evidence of how Christianity has blood on its hands too

2. I've asked how the selective use of 2007 is 'all conquering' but 1995 counts for nothing?

3. I've questioned how the silly argument about who is worse proves much, because it doesn't have any winners. Both sides have blood on their hands and you're taking a moral high ground claiming the amount of blood on Christian's hands is less than on Muslim, whilst the number of graves in history is all forgotten about. The numbers don't really matter, both 'sides' have used the name of God / Allah to justify their actions - actions which are ultimately acts of human vitriol. Christian, Muslim or other, all humans using their religion as a justification.

4. MOST Christians don't kill. MOST Muslims don't kill. So why are you so quick to take the actions of minorities and use them as a defence of Christianity over Islam

Your implication that I side with Muslim extremists is offensive and prefacing the implication with 'appear to be' doesn't lessen it one iota.

You've let yourself down with that.

Seriously you are bonkers.
Yet another ‘I can’t answer your questions so I’m going to attack you’ reply. Yes it’s me who is embarrassing myself the thing with a conversation is it takes 2 people, so don’t reply!

Btw it's your God too, so what do you say about the 23 wars going on across the world right now, 21 of them in the name of Islam. But hey it doesn't matter because Christians did it all hundreds of years ago. What a strange outloook.