To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I can see the argument that Ebola is a result of man (or man's sin) and not God's vengeance, but who gets to interpret what IS God's intervention and what is not?

There's a very evident cherry picking that positive events are the result of God's mercy / an answer to prayer, but bad things are man's doing. I'm tempted to say "you can't have it both ways" but I'd fall slightly short of that and stick with "who gets to interpret?'

Finally, if God does occasionally intervention and carry out a miracle / answer a prayer, how should we interpret God when he elects not to intervene? is a lack of mercy not a form of vengeance?

Thinking about brilliant minds who believed in God, Tolstoy was one. He wrote a Book called The Kingdom of God is Within You, highly Christian but in a way that was against the church, and that this influenced Ganhdi in that it was about non violent revolution.

the fact that a banana is curved towards your mouth is proof of God’s plan are a little bit thick, though.

My banana points upwards away from my mouth. I do believe I have a little devil(ment) in me!

“If it makes them feel better, what's the big deal?”

No big deal at all. So long as they do not expect- or even if they den’t expect get anyway- special treatment because of their faith. Christians in the UK do. Oh and so long as they don’t imply that my life is meaningless. Or perpetuate anti intellectual bullshit which is bad for society as a whole.

bertrandrussel God loves atheists too, but in answer to mac, this thread was originally about what people's perceptions of God are. It automatic assumed that it was aimed at Christianity. It's wasn't but as usual people started having a go at people who were deemed to be Christians. I take it that you arent a Christian mac so i don't understand why you think it's wrong to bring the koran into a thread that's been attacking the bible, it's a holy book as is the koran.

You point out about the murderous goings on in the bible, so i rightly pointed out about the murderous goings on in the koran, the difference being that Christianity has mainly moved on. Islamic militants are not only killing Christians but also for being "the wrong sort of muslim" .

I'm sorry but if Christianity can take such a bashing then it's only fair to point out the glaring obvious.......it's not Christians who are doing all the killing across the world today.

I don't really find it any more surprising that intelligent people believe in god than that unintelligent people do. Intelligent people can be just as flawed, just as desperate for reassurance, just as frightened of death, just as influenced by their upbringing and just as attracted by the trappings and power of organised religion and the complexities of theological dogma.

I do sometimes wonder how Christians would get on if they really were being persecuted- the way they call “bashing” at the mildest of challenge in a country where Christian privilege is embedded in legislation!

Do you really see nothing objectionable in saying to an atheist that their life only has meaning because god loves them anyway?

I don’t believe because 1. There is no evidence telling me I should and 2. If there is some higher force than me, I’ve seen no evidence of it. If it is there, my brain has not been made big enough to comprehend it.

Bertrand logicalmum ignores most of what people type and only picks the bits she feels she can argue with... a bit like what Christians do with the bible
That can be said about other religions too. I'm sorry but to have a debate about the rights and wrongs with Christianity (which wasn't the original Op) other religions do need to come into it. It's how we judge everything to be, by comparing. It wasn't a thread about Christianity, so why shouldn't other religions come into it. But it's obvious it's only Christianity you have a problem with. If you spoke so vocally against Islam the thread would probably be shut down. There's the double standard.

Christians in the UK do.

Not every single Christian in the UK does though.

Oh and so long as they don’t imply that my life is meaningless. Or perpetuate anti intellectual bullshit which is bad for society as a whole.

I don't agree with that anymore than I don't think it's respectful to call a religious person unintelligent.

I was brought up ‘born again.’ I knew the bible cover to cover. I knew every counter argument to unbelievers comments. Yet all of the hysteria passed me by. I tried to speak in tongues, but nothing. Never felt the spirit moving.

I think we’re suggestible as humans. We want to make sense of complexity. We want to believe in fate rather than randomness.

The best we can do is live happy and good lives.

Looking back at the children and young people I knew in church, all who were brought up in it from birth are still resolutely in it and passing on the same to their children. The children I knew who were adopted from toddlerhood left the church. The ones who were born again in their youth have almost all left.
It leaves me thinking that family is a powerful cultural influence, much more than a so called God knocking on the door of your heart.

No...it’s no longer Christians doing the bulk of the killing across the world today. You are right.

But it’s still “faith”, isn’t it? Which is why it’s so essential that atheists speak out against faith when the opportunity presents itself.

I make no real distinction between the religions. Islam is as stupid and pointless an ideology as Christianity is. But those Muslims who want to hurt others are finding a handy hiding place behind the skirts of their fellow faith fans...”Well, of course it’s terrible to machine gun journalists but they were insulting their faith.....” (read on this very site over and over again following Charlie Hebdo).

The world would be better off without faith, I am convinced of it - and it would most certainly be better off without this accepted notion that religious ideals should command respect whether they’ve earned it or not.

So, if we have to hurt the feelings of people in the West engaging in their little “FAME...I wanna live forever..” fantasy then that’s a small price to pay to try and get to a place where suicide bombers are not routine.

I don’t want (personally) to stop people believing in God. I don’t give enough of a shit to be honest. I do want to stop people demanding & expecting respect for their beliefs, though. Because while this only amounts to a bit of bosom thumping on MN, the same demand translates into dead children elsewhere in our world.

Just so you know.

Oh..and shall we save a bit of time?

I know only a small majority of Muslims are murderers & are as horrified by what happens as the rest of us. This I know. Yes...really KNOW. OK. Good.

It's easy to take a snapshot of 'now' in isolation and make Christianity look decent and Muslims look unreasonable and extreme. The Bible is littered with vengeance and predicts plenty more turmoil to come. Right now, Christianity does indeed portray itself as pacific and forgiving, but it can still be highly judgmental of morals. It has a very confused stance on sexuality too having for years been opposed to women in positions of religious authority and against homosexual acts. Now it's faced with overwhelming condemnation of that stance, it's being forced to 'reinterpret' God's message. God's rules are now God's evolving message. A cynic might call it populism to (reluctantly) have opened the door to women in religious authority, and more tolerance of homosexuality.

That doesn't make Christians bad people, but 'the church' has been a sod over the years, and it most definitely has plenty of corruption and deviants amongst its number. There are countless denominations in Christianity too, many of whom cannot even agree on the Holy Trinity, let alone if it's ok to have anal sex.

The war following the breakup of Yugoslavia (aka the Bosnian war) resulted in many convictions (particularly of Christian Serb leader) of genocide. Many 'born again' Christians will be quick to argue that the 'Christianity' here is in name only, but this is another issue Christians need to deal with... a LOT of conflic is in the name of Christianity, and not all 'Christians' are of the born again / pacifist mould.

We can't point the finger and say 'look at those Muslim killers' because they ARE Muslim, but then claim 'oh those nasty Serb Christians, weren't proper Christians'. Besides, does it matter who is killing the most at this moment in time?

Christianity has killed millions in its time. The history of Christianity cannot be ignored, nor can the deaths of those killed in (supposedly) God's name.

Cross post with TabbyMack - similar views.

Must also add, atheists are no stranger to mass killing either, so basically we humans has a nasty side to us, and God seems quite happy to sit back and let us fight.

He has more will power than I do. I'd have to intervene at the point where my children's squabbling had escalated into killing each other.

I do sometimes wonder how Christians would get on if they really were being persecuted- the way they call “bashing” at the mildest of challenge in a country where Christian privilege is embedded in legislation!
I only mention the "bashing" because i think it should work both ways. It's not really a thing whereas the slightest criticism of Islam is often called out as "Islamaphobic" when often it really isn't. People very freely criticise Christians on here in a way that they wouldn't dare to towards Islam purely because of the instant "phobic" label that's put on them. It really should work both ways, and i don't understand why it doesn't.

Christianity has killed millions in its time. This is perfectly true, but so have deliberately non-religious totalitarian regimes.

*No...it’s no longer Christians doing the bulk of the killing across the world today. You are right.

But it’s still “faith”, isn’t it? Which is why it’s so essential that atheists speak out against faith when the opportunity presents itself.*

Oh my!

This is so hard for me to read. Yes it is faith - but RELIGIOUS FAITH. Huge difference imo and where I really struggle with these sorts of threads where god/love gets mixed up with religion.

My faith would not kill. My faith is about love.

“I don't agree with that anymore than I don't think it's respectful to call a religious person unintelligent.”

I don’t think you should call a religious person unintelligent because they are religious either.

Logicalmum- there is nothing I would say about Christianity that I would not say about any other faith. I just happen to know a lot more about Christianity than any of the others, and it is Christianity that occupies the position of privilege in the UK where I live, so i am more likely to talk about it.

That’s the point I was trying to make Eolian.

It’s not intellect that leads a person to faith. There’s no pathway utilising reason and evidence that leads to dead people walking & a 3-in-1 god who loves the smell of burning flesh and sees significance in sacrificing one part of himself to another.

It’s emotion, fear, social conditioning etc. Smart people can fall prey to this too. In fact, if we look at human thought processes as a whole, we ALL do this, quite regularly, just not alsays about religion.

But, there is a clear and undeniable tendency for smart people to reject theism simply because there is a tendency for them to begin with logic and reason and believe whatever it produces. Obviously.

To believe in God you need to start with the belief and then try and intellectualise it, rather than the other way round. Educated people are more likely not to do this.

And it wasn’t me who raised intelligence anyway. Someone tried the whole, “Look at all these clever Christians”..I just countered it. Who cares....clever people believe rubbish all the time. So what?

I refer again to this list. Of course there were awful atrocities committed by Christians in the past, indeed by all religions. The world was and still is a very brutal place. But there is no other religion doing things like this still. It's off the scale. Muslim extremists and not ordinary peace loving muslims i must point out as required. .but there aren't any Christian groups doing similar at this moment in time. That was in one YEAR. What is so wrong in agreeing with it for goodness sake. It's appalling.

www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2017

Whoops.

I meant to say, “I know only a small MINORITY of Muslims are murderers”.

As I’ve said before logicalmum and yet another things you’ve picked apart and not listened to.
I don’t agree with any religion and if a Muslim/Sikh/Hindu want to come on the thread and discuss their religion that will be great, you’re a Christian as are others commenting which focuses the conversation on Christianity.
Why do you believe in god?

I am interested, Mum that absolutely nobody has called you a racist on this thread.

When an atheist says these things about Islam on here we are racist bigots....and that’s according to quite a few fellow atheists too.

Not that you ARE a racist, by the way...I am not suggesting that. Just highlighting the anomaly.