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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

999 replies

ChaosNeverRains · 15/03/2018 10:13

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

OP posts:
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CharlotteCollinsneeLucas · 17/03/2018 12:03

logical mum, I only picked on Christianity because I am a Christian myself! And because it was in response to BertrandRussell's comment.

logicalmum · 17/03/2018 12:03

mac i never said the bible wasn't full of horror stories, it was written by man so obviously not everything should be taken literally. But in a thread that wasn't meant to be about the bible i didn't see why that should be the only holy book mentioned .and torn apart Christianity in the world today does far more good than harm.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:08

Logicalmum I really suggest you do some reading. Atrocious acts have been committed in the name of Christianity. Some very recent in fact. You are only Christian because of where you live, had you been born elsewhere you would be Hindu/Muslim/whatever your god only exists to you because the Roman Empire invaded Britain.

The reason we all automatically think of Christianity is because most of us are U.K. based or bought up here where Christianity is the dominant religion.

seventh · 17/03/2018 12:09

I think faith ( a belief in god outside of a religious belief) can be something which is used to cling to , to make one feel better about life.

It can also be something which has been carefully thought through and experienced....and which creates learning , personal growth and understanding.

Or both of the above (sometimes)

It's simple, complicated, interesting and confusing!

But essentially it's love. It's about love and loving others. Can't go too far wrong with love. Generally......I find 😊

Slippery · 17/03/2018 12:09

higgledy it's more likely that that's where the idea of an afterlife started, rather than the other way around.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:10

Seventh that makes sense, thank you

logicalmum · 17/03/2018 12:11

Oh that's fine then, so by your logic any bad Christian and any bad muslim isn't representative of that religion. So what's the problem. Still waiting for your question.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:12

Try reading it again. Muslims claim the extremists don’t represent their religion, Christians say the same. So trying to say the Koran is worse and Muslims are worse doesn’t make sense and doesn’t make your religion better.

CharlotteCollinsneeLucas · 17/03/2018 12:13

You are only Christian because of where you live, had you been born elsewhere you would be Hindu/Muslim/whatever your god only exists to you because the Roman Empire invaded Britain.

I've considered other religions, regardless of my birthplace. I decided Christianity makes most sense to me. Because of it all coming down to love (as seventh said), and because of God coming to us.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:13

Scroll back, you’ll find about ten. I’m not going to go and repeat everything to someone who basically has their fingers in their ears singing ‘la la la’ unable to actually discuss it.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:15

It makes most sense to you. I suppose that’s the reason for any religious people. I know a few Christians who converted to Islam because it made sense to them.

ChocolateWombat · 17/03/2018 12:18

How do people have a revelation about God?
It happens in a variety of ways. Some people speak about encountering God, totally out of the blue, when they weren't interested or looking at all. This kind of thing, like miracles doesn't sit easily with westerners who want everything to be easily explainable......but people still talk about experiences like this.

Some people are interested and looking - they read religious books and talk to people and research, in what might seem a very logical way. At some point they choose to believe or not to believe and sometimes in their reading they get a sense of 'conviction' and feel so thing has been revealed to them.

I don't think people choose to believe or not believe. You can't just make yourself. However you can open yourself up to looking into faith and researching and seeing where it leads. Some people are more willing to do this than others ....some are a bit scared about where such an investigation might lead or what they might find, which might challenge what they have previously believed or how they have lived.

logicalmum · 17/03/2018 12:20

green show me a similar list what Christians have done in the last YEAR that could equal that, and i'm actually reading a book right now about a muslim woman who converted to Christianity because it made more sense.
www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2017

TheBrilliantMistake · 17/03/2018 12:20

I'm an atheist, but I must confess that on a couple of occasions in my life I have tried to cut a deal with 'God' when faced with the genuine fear for a loved one's wellbeing.

I don't put that down to avoidance of doing anything practical as one poster suggested, rather (in my case) an acceptance that there was nothing practical I could do except have faith in emergency medical teams and maybe, just maybe pray. Desperation? damn right, but the deals I was trying to cut with God in those moments felt very real.

It's similar to that phrase 'there are no atheists in the trenches'. It's untrue of course, but it does illustrate the phenomenon very well.

When you're faced with the potential of seemingly unbearable grief, something inside some of us just cries out for help - from anyone, anywhere, and if there is a God out there, I dare say he's heard the odd begging plea from other atheists too.

vdbfamily · 17/03/2018 12:25

For anyone claiming that intelligence and faith are incompatible, here is a list of great minds to think about
some of the greatest thinkers throughout the centuries have been Christians. Of course, not all of them were perfectly consistent in their application of Christianity to various intellectual pursuits. The important point is that they did not believe their faith kept them from using their minds.

In the area of LAW, Sir William Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England has remained a classic of legal scholarship since it was first published in the mid-1700s. Blackstone defined law as “a rule of action dictated by some superior being.” He claimed that God dictated laws for men, which could be discovered in nature and in the Bible: “Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human law should be suffered to contradict these.“1
In LITERATURE, the number of great Christian writers through the centuries is astounding. To look only at England, we find that many of the greatest poets were Christians, even clergymen: John Donne, George Herbert, and John Milton. Samuel Johnson was, in his time, the leading literary critic in the English language, and the compiler of an early English dictionary. Even into this century, many leading English literary figures were Christians, including G. K. Chesterton, T. S. Eliot, C.S. Lewis, and Dorothy Sayers.
In PHILOSOPHY, Christians dominated the West from the fifth century until modern times. The great philosophers of the Middle Ages were all theologians: Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Anselm of Canterbury, William of Ockham. When philosophers began to abandon Christianity in the 17th century, most continued to be influenced by Christianity and to address the issues that Christians had been wrestling with for centuries. Even the “father of modern philosophy,” Rene Descartes, despite the evil effects of his thought, was trying to provide a secure proof for the existence of God.
In POLITICS, many of the important political leaders of the medieval and early modern West were Christians. Until the later Middle Ages, every king of Europe claimed to be Christ’s representative on earth. In Russia, the czars claimed to be the protectors of the Orthodox Church right up to the time of the Bolshevik Revolution. In the modern era, such outstanding political figures as John Adams, George Washington, William Gladstone, and William Wilberforce were all to varying degrees professing and practicing Christians.
In the ARTS, we discover again that most of the (sometimes anonymous) medieval painters, sculptors, and architects were evidently Christians. The great cathedrals of Europe, the magnificent stained glass windows, the colorful altar pieces, the statuary that adorned the cathedrals – all were dedicated to Christian themes, and were generally produced by Christian artisans. During the Renaissance and Reformation periods, artists began to gain more individual recognition, and we have clearer evidence that many were believers. Among these were Rembrandt van Rijn and Albrect Durer, two Protestant painters.
In MUSIC, much of Western music was written by Christians.2 Johann Sebastian Bach and Georg Friederich Handel are two representatives of the great German Christian tradition in music. Handel’s “Messiah,” a series of Scripture texts set to some of the most exhilarating music ever written, is still a holiday favorite today. Everyone recognizes the tune to Handel’s magnificent “Hallelujah Chorus.” Bach was, if anything, even more self-consciously Christian than Handel, and dedicated many of his compositions to the glory of God.
SCIENCE and technology in the modern world often seem to be at odds with Christianity, but this was not always the case. In fact, after Christianity had taken over the Western Roman Empire, there was an unprecedented burst of innovation in agricultural technology. The inventions included the heavy plow, crop-rotation, new types of harnesses for horses, and nailed horseshoes. Some scholars have concluded that this burst of technology, which continued throughout the medieval period in Europe, was a result of Christian beliefs and attitudes.3 Many of the leading scientists of the early modern world were also professing Christians: Isaac Newton, Johann Kepler, Robert Boyle, Lord Kelvin, Louis Pasteur, Michael Faraday, Clerk Maxwell, and many more.

On a purely personal note, following Jesus' teachings was never claimed to be easy or a 'crutch' We are told to take up our cross and follow him daily. There are many parts of the world where Christians are being murdered on a daily basis for daring to say they follow Christ. However, there is a supernatural, unexplainable experience in trusting God that it is hard to describe to someone else and once you have experienced it, you know He is real. The expression 'peace that passeth all understanding' has been real to me on several occasions in the last year or so, in situations when I should have been distressed and desperate. At Christmas time, my older brother was admitted to A&E whilst I was on a shift and promptly diagnosed with an incurable brain tumour. That journey has been amazing as hundreds of Christian friends/family and strangers began to pray. Some will be praying for healing, some for strength and peace for him and his wife and children and family, some for the treatment to be bearable and effective in giving him longer than 6 months. What I can say is that as a family we have experienced the most incredible peace and my brother , as a Christian feels he is in a win win situation, based on the verse 'for me to live is Christ, to die is gain' . He has remained positive and cheerful and amazes everyone he meets. He is fighting it with all his worth but knows ultimately that if the cancer kills him he will be forever with Christ in eternity and that is the ultimate goal of every Christian. You might think this is all tosh but for me, living a life based on the teachings of Christ has been only positive and I cannot think of one detrimental effect it has had on me. If it also means that I have absolutely no fear of death then that is another plus.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:25

I quite like the Buddhist faith it makes more sense I think.

Marckles Alcius. Curtis Alvin. Gavin wright. Patrick stein. To name a few. Where’s your limit? You seem ok with people killing others in your faith because more kill in another faith. Try reading something that doesn’t just support your own views, like history books.

TheBrilliantMistake · 17/03/2018 12:26

You are only Christian because of where you live, had you been born elsewhere you would be Hindu/Muslim/whatever your god only exists to you because the Roman Empire invaded Britain.

That's straight out of the Richard Dawkins school of thinking but he's talking about a macro level truth, not a micro level.
Individuals can and do choose minority (in their region) religions, but the majority are exposed to the prevailing religion of their location, and thus are far more likely to follow that religion).

seventh · 17/03/2018 12:29

and if there is a God out there, I dare say he's heard the odd begging plea from other atheists too.

Absolutely! And my god ( I'm not religious so my god doesn't have a denomination ) loves everyone regardless and because , and if she can help , she will.

And have I proof of this? No I don't. But I believe it with all my heart. It's part of my faith.

And I don't mind if you believe it too, or if you don't.

Because at the end of the day , we are all equally valued and loved , IMO.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:29

Thank you vdb that’s an interesting read

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:30

Seventh that’s beautiful and I think the world would be a better place if everyone felt the same

logicalmum · 17/03/2018 12:31

Thou shall not kill. (one of the ten commandments) Doesn't matter what faith or religion you are, if we all stood by that one the world would be a better place. People who use their religion as an excuse to kill are just evil.

Greenyogagirl · 17/03/2018 12:33

Finally we agree on something

logicalmum · 17/03/2018 12:35

seventh that's exactly what i believe. God loves us all equally. Without him we are nothing.

vdbfamily · 17/03/2018 12:37

Green, there is currenlty an explosion of Christianity in countries where it is not the state religion and actively discouraged, China for example

thediplomat.com/2017/09/chinas-thriving-underground-churches-in-danger/
www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/?utm_term=.03d0c8db7986

My husband was raised in an atheist family and in fact excommunicated when he married a Christian(if you think atheists cannot be extreme!!) but he became a Christian at university when he was at last allowed to think for himself!

speakout · 17/03/2018 12:41

The ten commandments are a very dull set of guidelines- nothing that was not known by any peaceful civilization the world over.

I am particularly interested in the weighting god gives to himself, indeed the first 4, ( so I am guessing the most important) are given over to his petty jealous nature, no idols, no blasphemy, keeping the sabbath blah blah.
Only when we get to number 6 does he mention don't kill anyone.
So 40% of the commandments are to do with him and how great he is.

Some guy eh!

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