To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

It's true that Christians can be a poor advert for Christianity.

Ah but @BertrandRussell - who created the hole? ☺️

In the end, it's either true or it's not. There's no brownie points for being faithfully wrong.
At the same time, faith is involved in trusting in something you might believe there is evidence for, but not total certainty....if there was total certainty, faith wouldn't be necessary.
Lots of people believe there is no evidence for God. Other people believe there might be a God, but they don't like the world we are in - for some that seems to lead them to believe God can't exist and for others, ere is a God, but they aren't interested in a God which has made or allowed a world like the one we live in. In relation to that, I think that if God exists and people just don't like him, in the end, them liking him or not won't make any difference at the end if there is some kind of judgement.

As others have said, the majority of the world population do believe. We might like to think that somehow we are more advanced and have left the rest of them behind in the past.....or we might recognise that's very arrogant and that perhaps some of those people are not as daft as we might think....and look again.

And regarding this 'depends on what you mean by God' thing....well yes, but some faiths are very clear that it's not just belief in any old God that is needed, but that there is a right and wrong belief. For example Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me' - again, not popular in these days of relativism and when people think everyone is free to believe whatever they like and all beliefs or none are equally valid. This statement above about Jesus, for example, will either be true or false in the end.....it won't be true for those who believed it and not true for others.

I think humans do have a spiritual aspect to them. That's why people look for God. Today, for many that spiritual aspect is perhaps more buried, but I think that in most people lives, at some point or other, those spiritual questions arise and people seek bigger answers. In the end though, beliefs will be shown to be true or false.....we just have to wait and see!

How did i know Bertrand would challenge what i said. What you say doesn't negate what i said. The orderliness of the universe etc.
Charlotte well you could say that about all religions, why pick on Christianity. As far as i know they aren't fighting wars against each other. It is militant islamists who are causing most of the trouble in the world right now. Anything to say about that?

I haven’t ridiculed you ‘logicalmum’ I’ve asked questions which you’ve not answered. You keep going back to the Koran as if more torture makes a less torture ok. And like you Muslims say Islam is peace and interpret it to meet their own needs.
I think you’ve been brainwashed to be honest, you’ve said you don’t read the bible, you’ve failed to answer my questions and try to attack non believers on the thread because you have literally no explanations.
The proof in geology, fossils, books a lot older than the bible prove that god didn’t just get bored one day and create the earth. The universe and the earth are so much more complex than a being saying ‘let their be light’ and a burning ball of fire magically appeared the right distance away. There used to be water and life (bacteria) on mars, was that gods hobby too before he destroyed it?

Chocolate wombat - Jesus was Jewish though wasn’t he? And if it was clear that their is one god etc why are there so many factions of Christianity? Oh accept c of e because Henry viii wanted divorce to be ok!
In this country we were pagan and worshipped the sun and moon and nature (which I understand more!) then we were invaded by the Roman Empire and they forced their Christian beliefs on us.

No sorry, I think you are misinterpreting the hellfire stuff.Says who? I am simply reading words from a book. If you are going to assert that your interpretation has more validity than mine, on whose authority? Where are the York Notes that explains what is actually meant by what the words say?

Yes, I know you want to believe that Jesus/Yahweh didn’t actually mean we’d be barbecued for eternity - but the fact remains, that is what the texts indicate. And changing what is meant by the word “eternity” is a cop out. It’s does not mean “no coming back from” although that would be the upshot.

Do the fact that you have to ignore what the texts actually say to make sense of it not give you a fairly massive clue that there’s a problem? That it is, in fact, precisely what it seems to be - rambling, incoherent, illogical tripe put together by extremely primitive, superstitious people who thought bird shit landing on your head was highly portentous?

Jesus talks about hellfire...more than once and quite explicitly. At no stage does he suggest he doesn’t mean it literally. If he did then an immense amount of human suffering since he fake died would have been avoided.

Mintich Hell...as in terrible things happening after death...did not exist as a concept in the OT. God having his day referred to events on Earth. When you died in the OT, that was basically that.

Please answer my question - why would a non-believer follow the doctrine of a being they don’t believe in?

And stop with the whiny attempts at invalidation by stealth just because the lack of logic in your arguments is being highlighted. I already know why people believe.

Mum What valid point?

I think it's desperation. People can't bear to contemplate that they're basically alone in the world and when they die that's it. We're not good at contemplating nothingness and too arrogant to accept that when we die that's it, we're no more likely to 'carry on' in some form than an ant.

So I think a lot of religious belief springs from people being unable or unwilling to face reality.

I don't see 'faith' as an automatically good thing.

To me, faith is believing in something without any proof or evidence, or despite evidence to the contrary.

I think that's a dangerous thing, to just believe in something because 'faith' is seen as something positive.

Yes there are many factions of Christiantity and most religions. Many religions have caused numerous problems and also many religious people might not be good adverts for their God or religion.

The way i think about this, is simply that these are reflections of what humans are like. They don't necessarily reflect what God is like or what perfect religion would be. When people decide they don't believe becaue they don't like what an individual has done, then I think it's a shame, because they are allowing a person to block God perhaps. I can see why it happens, but I think it's a sidetrack.

There are lots of things people state for why they don't believe.....suffering in the world, science, religious hypocrites, wars, lots of religions.......I would say that all of these can be red herrings and be reasons that prevent people looking into it all a bit more. Often there can be pretty good explanations for these things like suffering etc.

Again, in the end, it will turn out that the things religious leaders said and claimed will be true or not. Either we will die and that will just be the end of it, with nothing more....I guess then, there won't be any pleasure or regret at having believed. Or it could be that it turns out something we didn't believe in is true and at that point we face some kind of consequence for not believing - guess we will be sorry then, or it could be that we find we were right and there is a positive consequence....and be glad.

I don't think anyone will say that when you die, if you believes you will find God is there and if you chose not to, God isn't there and isn't there for anyone. Again, it's either true or not.

green my last post wasn't directed at you, what do you mean "i keep going back to the koran" i wasnt aware the thread was just about the bible. If someone says as Charlotte did, that Christians can be a poor advert for Christianity it's perfectly right to mention other religions, this thread was meant to be about people's interpretation of God not one specific religion. Don't use the thread as an excuse to attack Christianity, it's just as hateful as attacking any other religion, surprising as that might seem.

It’s not surprising that it’s just as hateful as any religion. What’s surprising is you not being able answer literally any question I’ve asked. You don’t get to say ‘oh but the bible isn’t as bad as the Koran so that makes it ok’

Limonviola that actually makes sense, thank you!

green how the heck have you come to the conclusion i've been brain washed? and what are these "questions". you keep harping on about. I'm perfectly ready to answer any REASONABLE question you want to ask me. So just in case you have asked me something, please remind me and ask me again because i really can't be bothered reading back through all the posts to look for it.

Chocolate wombat, as much as I’d like to believe I can’t force myself.

limon my faith certainly isn't dangerous. I live a decent life, am kind to people, would sooner do a good turn than a bad one. Nope, nothing dangerous about me.

How can I believe in God? Because I have felt his presence in my life. Because with him in my life it is sweeter, although not necessarily easier.

I'm a bit of liberal (Anglican Christian) these days. And that is easier. I Don't take the Bible literally word for word. I Don't think anyone does take it all 100% literally, so those who read it try to apply today what was written millennium ago. Not easy but has value.

I have asked you a number of questions. Stating you think they’re unreasonable is a cop out. You seem very much head in the sand and don’t want to listen to others views or answer questions about yours. (?)

green How is Christianity on tthe same par as Islam. They're killing each other for "being the wrong sort of muslim" . Don't be ridiculous.

"The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them..."

I've known that too but most praying people do not pressune to know the outcome.

In prayer we lift a situation to God. We might cry, use eloquent words, perhaps even a form of poetry, we might get angry and feel crushed...yet...prayer for those who believe in it does something poetry cannot.

It opens a door into a situation and no matter how shit one feels, one does not ultimately feel alone.

We may indeed be poor deluded fools but we experience love, peace and joy in mixed measure 'in spite of' suffering.

Prayer does not solve things, sometimes it complicates them. But for some the biggest human tragedy is to be alone, and a faith in an all present being means one is never alone!

Spot on, Limon. I will add to that the social conditioning of being led to believe that “faith” is a wonderful thing worthy of respect and that being a Christian (in this society) is synonynous with being “good”.

I've asked you to repeat the questions, i see you still haven't.

Don't want to "listen to others views"??? I've given my views about God, why have you come on the thread, the posters question wasn't directed at atheists. You cannot accept that i believe in God. Just, why the hell does it bother you, leave me alone and go bother someone else, you're tiresome.

Mum

You are right that the Koran is full of horrors which is, in part, instrumental for much violence in the world today. No one sensible would disagree with that.

But what’s quite oustandingly arrogant and certainly ignorant in your position is the assumption that the Bible is any better. It’s just as bad.

That Christians are no longer killing people on behalf of God is because secularism stepped in with the Enlightenment.

Thank you Italiangreyhound

Wow that’s not very Christian of you is it. You ant be bothered to scroll back and neither can I. I’m here because my question is the same as the original posters.
I think you’ll find Muslims will tell you those acting like that aren’t Muslim. Just like when a Christian kills a bunch of people Christians say he doesn’t represent them.