To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I've read it, yes. Jesus talks about "weeping and gnashing of teeth." In other words, he's talking about regret. Not at all the same as, for example, the medieval idea of eternal torture.

According to the Bible, non believers go to hell, so Yahweh plans something far worse than merely killing them - he invented eternal damnation. Which is nice.

And what would you call a genocidal maniac whose instructions are to kill all the men, children and old women in a tribe but keep the pretty girls for your own fun?

Or stone homosexuals to death? Beat naughty children? “Punish” rapists by making them marry their victim?

Yeah...psychopath is the tamest word I can think of for Yahweh.

That’s not true, Charlotte. Jesus talks (often) about the torments of hell. What do you think he means by that. Jeremy Kyle episodes on a loop?

Whatever. Suffering of any kind inflicted for not thinking what you’re told to think is immoral.

A beautiful friend passed away recently. She left behind 3 sons and her lovely husband. Why? Why would 'God' choose to let this happen? Why would 'God' basically allow bad things to happen to good people and good things to happen to bad?
And abuse to vulnerable children etc etc etc.
It's cruel and makes no sense whatsoever to me.

@tabbymack he doesn't say do as I say or suffer at least not in Catholic bible. He talks about non believers suffering eternal punishment but that is for following the devil's doctrine.....who would want to go to hell anyway. He was pointing out that he'll isn't where you want to be no matter what the devil has promised. Non believers who are not following the devil don't go to hell, he clearly states he doesn't want to punish anyone .

Yes we do read the bible....the sane message is in Matthew, revelations, Ezekiel..... You've picked up on one point without the surrounding message .
Just what I was saying in my last post

Why have atheists come on this thread if not to either ridicule or tear apart any one who believes in God. The question the op asked wasn't directed at them. So that tells me they love to do what they do. Hmm wonder why.

*logicalmum exactly!

But eternal life in the presence of this God would be torture to you anyway, I think? So you don't want that option.

Eternal suffering is a horrific medieval idea. From the bit in Revelation about the eternal lake of fire. Doesn't mean that people suffer eternally. It means if you decided God wasn't for you, this life is all you get. After judgment, the second death. You're gone. No more.

Sorry to hear that, fullofhope. It's so unfair. Did you ask God not to let her die? If you did, God is also the best one to ask why he didn't step in. I don't know the answer.

I think logically I can't see how God can exist. I was brought up Catholic but always had a tortured relationship with the church until I decided just not to go. I married into a family of quite strong atheists who just couldn't understand how people could be so stupid as to believe in God. But I think God is a human construct that people designed to meet a human need. I think humans have a need for the rituals of life and also to have time out to think which used to be what you'd do in church, and should still be able to do, although many churches seem to be about guilt tripping and terrifying people rather than finding peace. The original need would have been to foster a sense of belonging.It's been replaced by mindfulness meditation and 'clubs' that people have to belong to.

fullofhope Perhaps look at it in a different way....God doesn't see it in the same way. When God takes someone he's taken them "home"., it wouldn't be a bad thing. Of all the accounts i've read of near death experiences people have talked of "heaven" as a place that felt like a home, a place they belonged in, a place full of goodness and light. None of them wanted to come back here.......Yes it's hard for the ones left behind but God knows that in a short time they too will come "home". A short time to God is probably a blink of the eye.

Faith. You can't choose or decide to have it. You do, or you don't. You might just have a little. You might hope. But people can't decide to believe- it's faith.

One problem is, I think, that God can only intervene so much before people cease to have any autonomy. Imagine someone tries to do something bad but can't because God stops them. Then imagine the whole world with just that happening all the time. You want to drive a little bit fast. You can't. You want to bitch about the person who got the promotion you wanted. You can't.

So I don't think it's a great solution for God to intervene to stop bad things happening.

Actually, I think the only way he'd be happy to do that is by ending the world and this current set-up.

I guess an alternative would be to stop bad things happening to good people. Then how do you measure who's good? And by extension, do you let bad things happen to bad people? Not God's way. Jesus was often outrageously forgiving of bad people.

So much rubbish and so little time. But, I’ll do what I can.

Mum (Sorry, but I just can’t with the “Logical” bit). “Why are atheists even here on this thread” = “Whah, whah, whah...I am out of arguments & can’t sensibly contradict anything so will cop a strop and try and try to invalidate others some other way”. Lame. Really lame.

Charlotte Please read your Bible. Hellfire is talked about in many, many more places than just Revelation. Eternal suffering is not a medieval idea...it was a Jesus idea. He was the one who showed up with that charming message (it didn’t exist in the OT). Was Jesus medieval? Nope.

If you want to pretend it’s all “metaphor” (the great get-out clause to explainaway the most embarrassing bits of Christianity) fine - but the fact remains that making people suffer (bodily or emotionally) FOR ETERNITY for not thinking or believing what you tell them to is immoral. It’s called fascism.

Mintich Your post makes almost no sense. He talks about non-believers going to hell for following the “devils doctrine”? What about believers following the devil’s doctrine?

And, erm, sorry to go all logical but what non-believer follows the devil. We don’t believe in any such being. Never heard of anyone who believed in Satan but not God. (Although I suppose there are probably people who think they are one and the same).

And, if you think I am only picking out the “few” horrid bits in the Bible, then no, you have not read it.

God is a work of fiction.

I try to be respectful to those who do believe and each to their own and all that but when people are super religious I am secretly thinking

I would never say this to anyone's face, and I do understand that for those people it's a real thing.

I also think Jesus was real and a lot of the bible happened but those were just real people with some massive hyperbole attached in the telling over the years.

I did @CharlotteCollinsneeLucas

No, sorry, I think you're misinterpreting the hellfire stuff. The eternal-ness of it is the fact there's no coming back from it. There is nothing to suggest that bodies or souls will be supernaturally kept alive in order to inflict even prolonged suffering, let alone eternally.

God is the source of life. It makes no sense to believe we could continue to exist once totally separated from him. I know it's a common belief, but, as I say, I think we have the medieval relish of other people's suffering to thank for that. You read the Bible through that lens and it's quite possible to think you see eternal suffering. I did for years.

@tabbymack the words devil's doctrine are literally used so no it's not rubbish. I'm reading it right now. A believer wouldn't follow the devil's doctrine as they are a true believer.

This is exactly what I said. Trying to explain the bible or your faith to someone who doesn't believe nor wants to understand why someone does is just a conversation that will go round in circles.

Do you have any answer to the questions you asked upthread, fullofhope?

By the way, the word hell isn't used but the old testament prophets repeatedly speak of a time when God would have His day — a day of justice in which He would express His anger toward sin and visit judgment on sinners. They referred to this as “The Day of the Lord.” (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel Amos and many other OT books)

@tabbymack you aren't interested in why people believe are you? So not sure why you are in the thread.
Also you seem very angry?
You keep coming back to the fact we supposedly haven't read our holy books...but we have? As many people on here have tried to explain but you aren't interested

tabbymack believe me i'm not out of arguments, but i raised a genuine point that so far has been ignored.

raisdbyguineapigs to me it seems far less logical NOT to believe.

Just take the universe, it would be nothing less than chaotic if it wasn't ruled by immutable laws.If there wasn't divine order it wouldn't have developed as it had. It had no need to. There is established order that governs all things.

Why would the earth constantly rotate round the sun in such a precise measured rhythm. We have our own sun and moon so perfectly placed that a fraction out either way would make life impossible. There is evidence of intelligence wherever we look in the universe.

Our solar system is vast and immeasurable yet earth is perfectly aligned to its own sun and moon in order to support life. No other planet has that in our solar system. Earth has been designed especially for us and for us to evolve to what we are now. The cosmos exists in perfect harmony for it obeys laws that are divinely perfect. It wouldn't have any need of such orderliness if it was just random.

There most definitely IS logic to believe in God, far more than to believe that all that what we are are merely just specks of stardust.

It doesn't matter what anyone believes , does it?

As long as it's not used to control, manipulate and judge ( which is why I don't believe god is part of religions) and as long as it's not used to hurt or kill ( which is why I don't believe god is part of religions)

Other than that ^^ we're all correct for ourselves.

Simple

“It doesn't matter what anyone believes , does it? ”

So long as they don’t expect (or get, even if they don’t expect) special treatment because of it. Sadly, in the UK, Christians do.

“Our solar system is vast and immeasurable yet earth is perfectly aligned to its own sun and moon in order to support life.“

No- it is perfectly aligned to support the life that evolved in it. To use a tired but effective cliche, the water in a puddle adapted to the shape of the available hole. Not the other way round.