To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

stayathomer I'm sure God has got huge power. I think we shouldn't think of God as someone looking down on us all and constantly creating miracles. What would be our purpose on earth if God was making everything perfect. That is for the next life, we are here on earth to learn. But to believe in God is surely to believe that He created us all and the universe too. That certainly is huge power.

What would be our purpose on earth if God was making everything perfect. That is for the next life, we are here on earth to learn.

I can't see the point in that either.

I wouldnt call it "arguing" when a believer is defending their faith. Many atheists will ridicule believers and not accept their statements of belief. Just let believers believe. it shouldn't bother you, except of course if they're trying to convert you, which is something i wouldn't do.

So believers can defend their faith on a thread like this and must remain unchallenged. Christian privilege is alive and well, I see.

It's fine to say live and let live when you are the one with privilege.

^This

I genuinely don’t think a lot of religious people understand how much the non religious have to put up with unnecessarily, but when you’re outside of the bubble it’s everywhere. I respect people’s right to believe what they want, but I don’t believe they have the right, morally, to enforce those beliefs on anyone else.

Read the heading of the thread, people have been asked how or why anyone believes in God. Why is it necessary to "challenge" anyone? Not really any need for an atheist to come on i would have thought. Absolutely nothing to do with "Christian privilege".

My parents and brother are very religious, I'm not. I agree with you.
But I can also see it gives them reassurance and comfort. 🤷‍♀️

Bert Christian privilege?
That’s not something I’ve ever personally experienced in this country. A lot of Christian ridicule though, and on this thread being called uneducated (??) and ignorant.
I would never insult someone who doesn’t believe the same things I do. Whether they’re atheists or Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc.

bigfat That’s not something I’ve ever personally experienced in this country

Are you a christian?

But it is apparantly OK for believers to argue with atheists?

I think on this thread, because the tone has been negative towards believers, the believers are, generally speaking, on the defensive. If I had started a thread saying “EVERYONE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD” then I would be on the offensive, (and I believe in the wrong, just as I think a thread titled “NO-ONE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD” would be wrong) and you would be entitled to defend your beliefs. It’s all about context.

Because I don’t attack non-believers or try to push anything on them, I have only ever found myself in the defensive position on this matter, with atheists determinedly trying to “outwit” me and prove I’m a fool for having faith. So I don’t think I’ve experienced any “Christian privilege”.

I must admit I laugh at Christian ‘privilege’ when I watch the minister at the local hospital visiting all the old and demented and lonely patients nobody else seems to feel any interest in. Perhaps he feels the privilege lies in following Jesus’s example.

I’m not a practising Christian, but I admire the compassion.

“Bert Christian privilege?
That’s not something I’ve ever personally experienced in this countrY”

You may not have personally experienced it. But it certainly exists. HChristians have a choice of 30% more schools than non believers, for example. And there is compulsory Christian worship in all state school, even non denominational ones. The automatic presence of Bishops in the HOL means that there is Christian input into all legislation - particularly relevant when considering things like stem cell research and end of life care. That’s just for starters. Quite big things............

“I’m not a practising Christian, but I admire the compassion.”

Yes, me too. There are many very good people in the Church.

A brilliant book that explains a lot by looking back at the history of religion is "Searching the Rubicon" by Russell J Cordua. It's out of print, but you can get second hand copies (some are very expensive though, not sure why?)

Also, if you want to explore it more, evolutionary biology has some interesting theories (I don't mean Dawkins). The theories tend to focus on natural selection - with selection pressure leading to religious practises as they (for whatever reason) led to a more cohesive society and so better living conditions, therefore increased reproduction. Debatable of course, but many religions have at their core anti-abortion and having as many kids as possible.

Of course, you can go too far the other way too and maybe selective pressures are working against religion now?

My children were effectivly barred from two of the nearest 4 primary schools to use by virtue of not being Catholic, and from one of the two neareset secondary schools by not being C of E (as all of the schools were oversubscribed). My children still had to sit through 'broadly Christian' assemblies and sing hymns at secondary school. There was a carol service and a Founder's Day in a church. The Queen is head of both the Church and State. That's the kind of thing people are referring to as Christian privilege.

What's the big deal anyway if your kids have to go to a Christian school. I'm sure they aren't being emotionally damaged. Its not like the kids are coming out of school all religious and indoctrinated. Some of the kids i see and hear coming out of school are very far from it. More loud, uncouth and completely lacking in respect for authority is how i see a lot of them. I'm sure the fact that they're going to a Christian school isn't making them like that. I'd worry more about out of control kids than any "Christian privilege".

I know it's a bit off topic but to believe in God you have to believe in free will which as I grow up I question. Do you have free will if you are born, for example, with no empathy or voices in your head telling you to do bad thing? Do you have free will if you have to make bad choices just so yout family survives?

Gotta say though the inheritant guilt that people feel even when they are not doing anything wrong. Ie just being lazy but not affecting anyone badly, or punishing yourself for not achieving ect does feel like a bit of a test.

I don't know, logicalmum. How would you feel if your children had to go to a school that promoted any other religion and sit through their acts of worship every morning? What if it was a school that promoted the old Norse gods? Would you mind that they had to listen to legends told as truths for half an hour a day or would you just think it didn't matter as long as they had good manners?

speakout that's so sad.

Its not like the kids are coming out of school all religious and indoctrinated.

I think they are.

Although some will come through religious school and deeply christian as a result, far more insidious is the casually accepting " sit on the fence" type christian, who will shrug at the idea of christian privilige, not care about the fact that the church continues to dictate society, indeed will unthinkingly tick CofE on a census form even though they have no bible in the home or not been to church in decades.
All schools churn out these types because indoctrination happens in all schools by law- and these types are very useful to the church, because the unthinking masses provide that "default" attitude which allows them to continue their control and enjoy their privilege.

What's the big deal anyway if your kids have to go to a Christian school.

This is what Christian privilege looks like.

Also the “big deal” is that I think Christian ideas of not taking responsibility for your successes and failures, putting everything down to God, is dangerous.

Segregated schools promote the ideas of “them” and “us”.

“What's the big deal anyway if your kids have to go to a Christian school.”

Hmm. And you say that Christian privilege doesn’ t exist?

However, the point is that often a child from a non Christian family will not get a place at the School nearest her house because a Christian child from further away will get priority. Both state funded schools.

I have only ever found myself in the defensive position on this matter, with atheists determinedly trying to “outwit” me

I left my faith behind after discussing my beliefs with others, and feeling that my position wasn't one I could defend. It's not about outwitting, it's about utilising discourse in order to refine our opinions.

When I felt defensive I thought 'why'. I now feel that my defensiveness was down to not being sure and clear about how well thought out my position was.

I don't mean to insinuate that no one with religious beliefs feels the same way, I'm just recalling my own journey.

headinhands- that's the point, if people are so sure and clear- how can they be pushed off course?

I have had very difficult times in my life. I have always been atheist since I was old enough to think for myself. My family are very religious.
I have never been able to circle the corners and think that faith is anything except delusion. But I knew that faith is not about reason.
I remember once in my darkest hour having my very religious sister trying to comfort me, and had me on my knees praying to god to enter me and help. I was so desperate I would have tried anything. She sat with me, I coped her words, I tried to open up to "god".
And what happened?

Nowt. Nada. Nothing. No vision, no blinding light. No change.

My life went on, in fact got even worse in the coming months.

My sister told me I was not prating well enough.

Oh well.

Glad I wasn't able to catch the god bug.