To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I've heard old people say there were no atheists in the Great War and that everyone believes in God if they’re frightened enough.
Life for most westerners now is very easy, comfortable and safe so we feel no need for divine help.

Bedknobsandhoover

I had cancer and really thought I was going to die and wouldn't be around to raise my young children. I was completly terrified about dying but never once did I start to desperately pray to god or believe in anyway. Even at the very difficult time in my life I still didn't buy into it. I put my hopes and faith in the doctors and science and I was lucky to be one of the ones who had a type od cancer that is curable.

When I felt defensive I thought 'why'. I now feel that my defensiveness was down to not being sure and clear about how well thought out my position was.

I think my “defensive” side regarding my religious beliefs comes out when people are forcefully, determinedly trying to make me turn away from my religion (and this happened to me at one workplace). Unlike you, it never makes me question my faith, often just reaffirms my belief. It sounds like turning away from God and faith was right for you - but that doesn’t mean it’s right for everyone.

And I also don’t think the church has a place in the state, and my children haven’t gone to faith schools as I don’t agree with the principle (there aren’t any near us anyway aside from a failing Catholic girls’ high school!). I now understand the points about Christian privilege, so thank you for explaining. I suppose it’s not as rampant in some areas and social circles. In the places I’ve worked being Christian has been sneered at, and in my DCs’ schools the extent of religious worship has been the nativity!

I've heard old people say there were no atheists in the Great War and that everyone believes in God if they’re frightened enough.

Yes but that was at a time when more people were religious anyway and many more had probably at least been brought up by church-going parents. I doubt that your current average atheist raised by atheists would suddenly turn to god in a time of crisis. It probably wouldn't even occur to them.

"I suppose it’s not as rampant in some areas and social circles. In the places I’ve worked being Christian has been sneered at, and in my DCs’ schools the extent of religious worship has been the nativity!"
It's not a matter of areas and social circles-it's part of the governance of the whole country. And state schools not having Christian worship are in breach of their statutory duty.

I see what you’re saying about Christian privilege, but being neither catholic nor COE, my DCs wouldn’t fit into either of those boxes on the school application form. So no privilege there for our family.
I’ve only experienced ridicule in this country for my beliefs, but only from strangers. I Work in a place with a catholic ethos, so everyone is very open to having beliefs, and you can speak openly about what you believe, whatever that is. No one blinks an eye. It’s refreshing! l
Come from a country which is considered a Christian country, and really is. You will see groups of teenagers openly having a Bible study in coffee shops, most people attend very active, modern churches, and Christianity is part of every day life. (There are also almost no discipline issues at all with regards to respect in secondary schools. Make of that what you want. On the whole children have a FAR greater tespect for teachers and adults).

Which country is that bigfat?

I don't think people realise how susceptible young brains are!!
My dc have no religion bar Easter, Xmas etc put on the them but they are very neck deep in religion via their religious school. Younger comes home telling me she loves God, he made everything.
Older made up her own clever and logical mind that God can't exist. She is very into nature etc.

Now if we were reinforcing that at home and going to church.. They wouldn't stand a change!!

“Lord I believe, help thou my disbelief”
I don’t know who ‘you’ are or what ‘you’ are. I just believe that if humanity is as good as it gets then it’s horrifying. To believe there is nothing beyond us smacks of such arrogance to me. Despite this I find myself unable to believe wholeheartedly yet nor can I relinquish the vestiges of faith which seem to be part of my core self.

And state schools not having Christian worship are in breach of their statutory duty.

DDs’ school (supposedly, apparently no one bothers really) does “thought of the day” in form time, which is their “act of worship” - it’s not religious in nature though, last week they all wrote down their idol on a slip of paper and then had to guess who said which idol!

And as I said - I disagree with religion playing a part in the state. But the Christian denomination I am most affiliated with (Quaker) definitely doesn’t have involvement in the state.

I'm on the other hand am from the least religious country in the world. Even people who say they are Christian really mean they only go to church at Xmas time, as a fun tradition. If someone seriously states they believe in a creator and God, people would say 'Riiiiight...' and move slowly away. Religious people are seen as oddballs. So the fact that in some western countries it's a massive thing to be an atheist is still so strange for me. Why would you believe in myths and legends? Why is not believing in no gods a huge thing, but believing in one and not believing in 1001 other possible gods is totally fine?

As I said, you might personally not benefit from Christian privilege- that does not mean it doesn’t exist. And as a resident of this country, the Christian lobby in the House of Lords presumably broadly reflects your views. And while I accept that Christians sometimes get a hard time in this country for their faith, it’s not all roses being an atheist either. I’ve lost count of the number of times i’ve been told I have a meaningless life, or no moral compass or (my personal favourite) a “God shaped hole”.

I was a Christian until I was 12 & my sweet pet rabbit who lived in a hutch was put to sleep after suffering fly strike.

What kind of god can make an innocent creature like that be partly eaten alive by maggots?!! I was horrified & obviously lost my faith.

Since then I've seen many people suffer in appalling ways - how can god allow that??

Since then I've seen many people suffer in appalling ways - how can god allow that??

Easy- and you even have a choice.

1. It's all man's fault

or

1. It's all part of God's plan which we wouldn't understand.

tameka God didn't "allow" those things to happen, they happened. Why do people think of God as someone who stops all bad things happening. If people don't believe in God, fine. But i think it's a bit silly to base a lack of belief on him just because he "allows" bad things to happen. God doesn't have to live up to what we expect of him. It's arrogant to try and assume he acts in a way we think he should. God tells us that one day "there will be no more tears", he hasn't said there won't be tears while we're on earth. We aren't meant to sail through life unscathed. Why would we think we should.

We aren't meant to sail through life unscathed. Why would we think we should.

Er- because according to christianity he's the dude that created the shebang?
He decided that we should be here, he made the earth, he made all the viruses and parasites.

So therefore by that logic he is a teeny tiny bit responsible?

Ever so slightly?

So it seems fair to question why he included all the shit, which makes people feel bad.

If I could stop something bad happening to my children I would.

Well whether he is or not it's not our shout is it. Him being "responsible" for us being here doesn't mean he has to do what we want him to. Anyway don't worry, you don't believe in him so it shouldn't matter.

And what;s with all this human sacrifice stuff?

Gives me the heave.

I mean who is really comfortable with that?

Sure a few thousand years ago it was fashionable to offer a human sacrifice once in a while, and the idea of having others atone for our misdemeanours was de rigour.

Rich thieves could pay poor men into serving a jail sentence on their behalf. A murderer who owned slaves could have one of them beheaded on his behalf and avoid the punishment.

But some of us still think that's a good ethos?

Apparently christians do- in fact it is the whole crux of the faith.

Pretty unwholesome stuff.

Someone or other said upthread that “99% of suffering in the world is humans inflicting pain on others” (or words to that effect).

That is patently untrue - but if it was, so what?

This excuse about “free will” assumes we have it to begin with, but we don’t.

I cannot leap off a building and fly to the moon by flapping my arms and neither can I turn myself into a mushroom the size of the universe. There are, actually, an infinite number of things I cannot do by sheer will so why didn’t Yahweh just add a few other things to the list?

Like..make rape impossible? Or make all suffering (if we must have it at all) come from natural events like disease or earthquakes and never, ever from another human being? It would not be difficult for an omnipotent, universe creating god to make it impossible for one human being to hurt another.

We don’t have “free will” in any real way so I’m afraid it does not work as an answer to the question “Why does a loving god allow suffering?”

And if you want to hang on to your god’s omnipotence, omniscience & omnibenevolence then you must relinquish any notion that it’s human beings who are responsible for anything at all, good or bad. In those circumstances, we’re merely puppets following a pre-existing script.

Logicalmum

Is God aware when a child is being beaten? Yes or no?

If no, then why are you worshipping an impotent nothing?

If yes, then why are you worshipping any being that would not intervene to help a child in danger? Why is such a monster worthy of your uncritical admiration?

I agree. He could have given us free will about almost everything, but made it not in our nature to kill or hurt people. Otherwise it would seem like a particularly cruel kind of experiment -

"I know, I'll create humans, some of whom will desire to hurt others, rape children etc. I'll give them no proof of my existence, just because I fancy seeing if any of them will believe in me with no proof. And anyone who quite understandably doesn't believe the preposterous and unconvincing stories about me will burn in eternal torment. Let's see how this pans out! And just in case the existence of some horrible violent humans isn't enough, I'll throw in the potential for natural disasters. Some humans might even think they've caused earthquakes by incurring my displeasure! "

Why do people think of God as someone who stops all bad things happening.

So is he all powerful? If yes, he could stop bad things for happening, right? And if he doesn't, he just doesn't care. But how does this fit with being good and loving? I'm not being goady, I really just don't get it. And 'God works in mysterious ways' is not an answer.

TabbyMack I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that we don't cause most of the suffering in the world.

Maybe this god thing is a sleep deprived, ratty, hungry, attention seeking grumpy 2 year old.

That W ould explain it all!!!!

This leaves us with the real question for you religious types, who made your god!

The only logical answer is "us"