AIBU or are we all going to be trapped in the UK from next March?

[Clarissalarissa]

So, Ryanair and Thomas Cook are inserting clauses in their booking terms to say that if your flight abroad doesn't go ahead because of Brexit that's your problem. No doubt others will follow. If any deal is ever done, to allow planes to fly, it is bound to be a lot more expensive than it is now.

Is everyone planning many years of UK-only holidaying?

You would prefer to trade with African countries? Mathanxiety - what is wrong with trading with African countries? Where were Poland and the precious EU countries you so vehemently defend when Britain was plundering our countries? The EU's discrimination against us is shocking but it seems to be swept under the carpet by many liberals for the sake of preserving the union. Absolutely shocking. I have been in my native country and watched EU negotiators bullying our government (including bribing officials) to sign agreements which allow huge EU fishing fleets into our waters to take our fish. Our fishermen in their rickety boats cannot compete with the huge trawlers so they catch next to nothing. Our children are starving, so what do they do? They get into boats (death traps) in Libya and die in the seas.

What is wrong with trading with African countries is that China has got there first, many are in a state of permanent war, many have very poor infrastructure, small farmers produce 70% of agricultural products, and there is simply no market in vast areas for the sort of products that Britain produces. The pluses of Poland are as I described.

Do you want to see big British companies wade in and take over control of African mining and water and rail and airports/air travel - a sort of second colonisation only far more difficult to throw off? You want more plunder?

Poland did not exist when Britain had an empire. Poland was overrun by Nazi Germany after a few decades of freedom despite promises of British support. It was part of three European empires. I am not sure where you come from, but maybe familiarise yourself with European history?

It's like somebody who leaves Tesco to open their own corner shop but still expects suppliers to give them the same terms they give Tesco!! That's basically what Brexit is of course - opening a little corner shop right next door to a Tesco superstore.

Comparing the UK to a corner shop whilst the EU is Tesco is ridiculous. The UK is one of Europe's largest countries in terms of economic activity. If you want to compare, you could compare the UK as Morrisons against the EU as being Tesco. And it that more valid comparison, yes, it's not unreasonable to expect suppliers to give similar terms to Morrisons as they do for Tesco.

China only filled a vacuum which was created when Britain abandoned the commonwealth unceremoniously for the EU. I am old enough to remember a huge campaign in my home country in the 70s to buy British and shun Chinese products and we bought into it. We eschewed everything Chinese and sharpened our appetite for everything British, after all that is what we hadknown since colonial times. We were massively let down when Britain lost interest in us. China has only just entered our market and I can tell you categorically that many of us are sceptical about Chinese products - especially the fast growing middle class. The number of requests I get for genuine UK products is unbelievable. I could build a huge business out of it if I am not too busy working grave yard hours in the field of law. Big mistake!

But, what difference would it make if British businesses took over - we will be substituting one european country with 27 others who are pillaging and plundering in an unprecedented scale. At least, we would be dealing with one country and not a conglomerate of 28 countries.

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/theukstradeandinvestmentrelationshipwithafrica/2016

Handy little link to actual facts and figures re Africa and the UK .

Wrong - China filled the vacuum that was left by the US, not Britain, when the Cold War ended and the US then started sanctioning countries like Sudan for human rights violations, which meant that other western countries' businesses had to follow suit. China wasn't so picky and ploughed ahead regardless of US policy.

The British were all but gone by the end of WW2, an irrelevance in geopolitical terms though they kidded themselves there was an empire and it was important. The empire had been pawned to pay for the war effort. The Marshall Plan millions were squandered to pay for the propping up of the empire.

I am not talking primarily about markets for Chinese finished goods, though trade works both ways. I am talking about China operating mining concerns, developing electrical power grids, building roads and rail networks and other infrastructure, training African engineers and using local labour through all levels of projects including professional. As an example, China first entered into a relationship with Sudan during the Cold War when China was very much the junior partner of Communism. The relationship went under the radar. Then China changed direction and developed the Belt and Road plan to tie other economies to China, Africa being one region among many that is the focus of a concerted policy. China is especially strengthening ties to Pakistan, central Asian states, Russia and Australia, and of course has long had economic links with the US and Europe, and after Brexit, the UK will face China on its own.

China is the leading external investor in Africa by a wide margin. British business cannot take over. British business cannot even get a small piece of the action at this point. The ship has sailed.

The point of a conglomerate is that it acts as one country...

www.mckinsey.com/global-themes/middle-east-and-africa/the-closest-look-yet-at-chinese-economic-engagement-in-africa

Figures on China and African economic relationships.

The next decade

We interviewed more than 100 senior African business and government leaders, and nearly all of them said the Africa–China opportunity is larger than that presented by any other foreign partner—including Brazil, the European Union, India, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

But exactly how quickly will the Africa–China relationship grow in the decade ahead? We see two potential scenarios. In the first, the revenues of Chinese firms in Africa grow at a healthy clip to reach around $250 billion in 2025, from $180 billion today. This scenario would simply entail business as usual, with Chinese firms growing in line with the market, holding their current market shares steady as the African economy expands. Under this scenario, the same three industries that dominate Chinese business in Africa today—manufacturing, resources, and infrastructure—would dominate in 2025 as well.

We believe much more is possible: in a second scenario, Chinese firms in Africa could dramatically accelerate their growth. By expanding aggressively in both existing and new sectors, these firms could reach revenues of $440 billion in 2025. In this accelerated-growth scenario, not only do the three established industries of Chinese investment grow faster than the economy, but Chinese firms also make significant forays into five new sectors: agriculture, banking and insurance, housing, information communications technology and telecommunications, and transport and logistics. This expansion could start with Chinese firms moving into sectors related to the ones they currently dominate—for example, from construction into real estate and housing. Another part of this accelerated growth could come from Chinese firms more fully applying their formulas that have proved successful in China to markets in Africa, including business models in consumer technology, agriculture, and digital finance.

"The point of a conglomerate is that it acts as one country..."
Indeed, what chance do small countries have of negotiating fair trade agreements with this goliath? None whatsoever. Support for imperialism whilst we pretend to care about the plight of the poor poor people in darkest Africa. African countries want to trade fairly - the do not want to be given handouts which get into the hands a corrupt minority. You gave an example of China's influence in Sudan - I was talking about commonwealth where China was not able to gain a foothold until recently and even now there is serious mistrust of the Chinese, especially in my country of origin - and I am close enough to the people in power to know that they will not think twice about breaking the mould if they can get a better offer.

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There was a vision in Africa in the 50s of coming together to form a conglomerate called the United States of Africa. It was proposed by the late Dr Kwame Nkrumah, first president of Ghana, long before Europe did dream of a closer union. It spooked the West and was scuppered through coup d'etats. America did lead the charge, of course, but Western Europe was firmly behind it. How else could France, for instance, collect its royalties from former colonies (and it continues to collect to this day, but that is a topic for another day) if they are united under one umbrella therefore stronger? Europe has underdeveloped Africa, the Chinese are just picking up the crumbs.

So to simplify, you believe, what? The average British person and the average African person are going to benefit enormously from brexit?
Is that your arguement here?

Indeed, what chance do small countries have of negotiating fair trade agreements with this goliath?
This should have been on the side of a bus.

The Chinese are not picking up crumbs. They are making huge inroads and a lot of money, and the more they get established and develop genuine trade networks and all the services involved, the more Africans find employment and gain management experience, the more many countries are going to want to welcome their presence.

And it was in fact during the 50s that Europe was putting the dream of ever closer union into effect. When Ireland first began internal discussions on joining what was then the EEC, in the early 60s, it was well understood what membership might eventually entail. The prospect of having to leave behind Ireland's traditional policy of neutrality was discussed both in Ireland and with EEC leaders.

I am also puzzled as to your drift here.