AIBU or are we all going to be trapped in the UK from next March?

[Clarissalarissa]

So, Ryanair and Thomas Cook are inserting clauses in their booking terms to say that if your flight abroad doesn't go ahead because of Brexit that's your problem. No doubt others will follow. If any deal is ever done, to allow planes to fly, it is bound to be a lot more expensive than it is now.

Is everyone planning many years of UK-only holidaying?

Snork poorer areas of the EU included areas of the UK.

MRSsqueak this referendum only needs to be regarded as advisory.

From the government leaflet shoved through everyone's door;

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.

Its not a simple equation of one country puts £1 in, another country takes £1 out. The point is working together, cooperating, enjoying free trade,, living in peace without wars, increasing standards of education, working together to improve standards and the environment. I know that people who are focused only on themselves and their personal wealth can't see beyond that.

Of course you have to change the current arrangements, because they are written for EU members, which we won't be part of. How hard is that to understand??

Apollo then that's not an informed opinion, is it?
It's a GLOBAL agreement. We were able to be a part of the terms of the EU agreement because we were members. No, we can't keep the same terms, we have to renegotiate with the REST OF THE WORLD and the EU. Trump has already offered us worse terms than we had under the EU, but we need to negotiate. With the US and every other Open Skies signatory.

To keep the terms of the EU's agreement we need to stay in the EU. 'We' (not me personally) choose to leave therefore we need to sort these agreements.

Being as we can't negotiate this stuff until after the EU deal has been decided we should get on with it, really. Only we're not because negotiations have ground to a halt over the Irish border.

(I think that's only the fourth or fifth time I've had to say that on this thread?)

Although it's frightening that the leave vote was won with that level of ignorance.

Nail on the head. What possible reason would there be to change the current arrangements other than pettiness/revenge

Because 21 months ago, the electorate voted against 'the current arrangements'. The Brexit campaign won on a platform of leaving the EU, freeing the UK from EU rules and taking back control. Unfortunately the Brexit supporters seemed to miss the bit about throwing away about 750 beneficial treaties and are now very upset, accusing the EU of punishing them for pointing out the consequences of their own decision.

Another thing - the will of the people means that to leave the EU we need to breach the Good Friday agreement.

Buuuut.... will of the people. Even if it means the IRA start mainland campaigns again.

That's what was voted for.

Open Skies is not solely a EU-UK treaty, it is an international treaty.
Yes it is. And as you say the US has offered the UK a worse deal than under the current arrangement. That is their prerogative (no threat of banning flights). We can continue to negotiate. Similarly it is the EU's decision what terms it offers access to the UK post Brexit. They can offer us the same terms. They don't have to. Switzerland's carriers, for instance, can't originate flights within the EU. Switzerland does not have 2 major hub airports that are used for a very large number of transatlantic and international flights by all EU carriers. If the EU chooses to limit our carriers, we could reciprocate. So perhaps we can pull off a better deal than the Swiss managed. Yes we chose to leave but the EU's hands aren't tied at all (unless of course they want to be petty....back to original point).

Since Leave voters chose to throw away those hundreds of beneficial treaties I'm still waiting to find out what we supposedly took control of which is so important and valuable.

Even if it means the IRA start mainland campaigns again.
That's what was voted for.

That sounds like victim-blaming. If the IRA start their campaigns again then that is entirely down to the IRA. Don't try to shunt the blame onto other people.

We can continue to negotiate. With the US and the other 33 signatories of Open Skies.
Once the EU deal is settled - or not.
Unless we reach an exit agreement with the EU we can't negotiate this or any of the other 749 agreements that require negotiations or do any trade deals until April 1st 2019.

i am fully aware that parliament could change it if they wanted to. my whole point is they arnt going to so there is no point in people saying but we could still stay.... we cant we are leaving we just have to hope it goes well in the end

It's not victim blaming. If we breach the Good Friday agreement then IRA campaigns may well resume. It's a consequence.

@ilovesooty sovereignty init 🙄

Purely personally, I don't (and never did) want the UK to be a hub for transatlantic and similar long haul flights. I am more than happy for the continual expansion of Heathrow to stop. There are economic benefits of course, but trying to attract noisy planes to burn their untaxed fuel over our major cities and then clear off somewhere else without the passengers even leaving the airport is a "pleasure" I don't mind surrendering to Schipol - which does it so much better anyway.

And the blue passports Bishop

frank fuck people who live in the North and for whom it takes hours to get to Schipol without flying then...

If we breach the Good Friday agreement then IRA campaigns may well resume. It's a consequence.

You seem to be accepting that with equanimity. Do you support the idea?

You don't have to support the idea to point out the consequence.

How is acknowledging that it is only because of the GFA that the IRA agreed to the ceasefire and the reasonable extrapolation that the UK acting contrary to the GFA/a hard border would lead to the IRA resuming their activities being supportive of an IRA campaign?

Of course I fucking don't.

@Apollo440

The USA is not banning flights between the UK and USA - it is merely pointing out that only two US airlines currently meet the requirements of the proposed new UK-USA Agreement. There will probably still be flights, but under the current proposals United will have a virtual monopoly and Virgin, BA and Norwegian UK will not be permitted to fly UK-USA routes.

As for Switzerland, Swiss airlines can fly to and from the EU, but not within the EU (e.g. Frankfurt - Berlin) as Switzerland is not an EU member.

Once outside of the EU, the UK cannot even fly UK-EU until a new Open Skies Agreement is made. The EU has never proposed banning EU-UK flights. The point is that on 29th March 2019, the current Agreement ceases to be legal and the UK has to negotiate a new Agreement and there is a nagging doubt that this may not be agreed in time. There is also the problem of Open Skies being an international agreement, not a EU-UK agreement. There are more parties to the Agreement than just the EU and UK, so any other country could object to the terms and thus delay or prevent the signing of the Agreement. Back to the original post - Ryanair, Thomas Cook (and Inghams) are now including a 'Brexit caveat' in their Ts & Cs beyond March 2019 to cover tis eventuality.

...being supportive of an IRA campaign?

Well you seem very resigned to it. Almost accepting.
Remainers seem very keen to call Brexiters blithering idiots, how about calling out potential troublemakers too? It's them making the threats.
Why would they throw away twenty years of peace and economic growth, it doesn't make sense.

Not accepting just pointing out cause and effect.
Your last sentence makes zero sense.

It's not about calling names. I'm a remain Vinny term but resigned.
I've yet to see a well reasoned argument why "it'll all be fine" yada yada.
Any negative consequences are argued away as "nasty EU seeking revenge" (when it's not an EU matter it's a leaving the EU problem) or posters are accused of being terrorist sympathisers. Or "the millennium was ok" (yes, thanks to lots of prep that we don't have in this situation).

No idea what Vinny term is. I'm remain but resigned. It'll happen. Nothing wrong with wanting solutions to problems, though.