AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

Scouts, Cubs and Beavers went mixed because of a lack of boys applying and male leaders.

Speaking on behalf of many posters I've read who are really bored and tired of anti-trans threads dressed up as 'discussions'

Just scroll on by then and leave those of us with genuine concerns the space to discuss the issues.

Scouts. Cubs. Beavers.

Do you know why these three went mixed sex?

Scouts etc went mixed sex because not enough boys wanted to join and they wanted to survive.

Primary school football teams can be mixed sex because at that age and the fact it’s a non contact sport means there’s not enough physical difference between boys and girls to necessitate single sex teams.

Whilst business deals are being made in organisations like the Masons and it keeps women from being able to work at a meritocratic level then they should be challeged. Single sex members organisations aren’t covered by requirements in equality legislation.

And to add - beavers/cubs/Scouts don't have to be mixed sex. I understood that each unit could decide for itself whether girls would join.

And yy to lack of leaders and boys on Scouting.

GGUK has over half a million members. There are 70,000 girls on a waiting list for a place. We don't have enough volunteers, but that's a problem for all youth groups. Girls WANT a single sex space and GG is one of the only options.

The hypocrisy is so stupid it makes me squint a little.

Better education about the issues would help, you should try it and keep your ignorance to yourself until then.

And I don't think the Masons was ever men only because men wanted a safe space was it? It was because women weren't considered worthy enough to be allowed into all the 'secrets'.

And it kept women out of all the Masons backscratching and therefore firmly in their place.

The hypocrisy is so stupid it makes me squint a little.

Your complete and utter lack of any critical thinking makes me squint a little to be honest.

I can't believe you mentioned the fucking Masons as an institution where its unfair that women might be allowed to join! 😂

I get it loud and clear, staySeated, where you are coming from.

So in your eyes, that makes it ok for 14 year old boys to sleep in the same tent and use the same changing room as 10 year old girls then (or 18 year old boys/14 year old girls) regardless of how the girls and their parents feel about it.

Oh yes, a very safe male space, indeed!

Agnes Scout groups can no longer choose to be single sex, though some Muslim groups run parallel troops at Scout level but mixed for younger children.

The whole world is a male safe space.

Beat me to it, the entire world is a male only space, when I can walk my dog in the woods alone without feeling scared, or flag down a black cab without worrying he's going to rape me, or walk down a dark street at night without fear, or god, even go about my business during the day without being told that 'smile it might never happen' or being asked if I take it up the arse, I might give a shit about male spaces.

With the police receiving a DV call every minute and a woman being assaulted in her own home every SIX SECONDS, I'd say even a woman's home is a male space! Please bugger off with your mansplaining.

if men feel strongly about them, I suggest they get organised like women have done.

The exemptions in the equality exist PRECISELY BECAUSE of this, so that women have space to gather, organise, heal and BE SAFE from totally out of control levels of sexism and male violence and entitlement, and to REDRESS THE BALANCE.

Here is Dr Nicola Williams raising this exact issue on the Victoria Derbyshire show. The clip is a minute and a half long.

Please note that the transwoman she is speaking to (pink/blue hair) either refuses to acknowledge the issue, or doesn't understand it.

Adult men, identifying as women, making these decisions for women and girls everywhere.

mobile.twitter.com/twitter/status/970608359102545920

@drspouse thanks for that, I stand corrected. It's a shame you can't edit posts on here otherwise I'd add a note to mine to say I got it wrong - I don't want to spread misinformation

If these people are so desperate to be women maybe we should let them see what it's like.
When they want to join things that we don't want them to be part of we should just tell them
"sorry but no, we don't care about your feelings & your views don't count"
after all that's the reality of being a woman, ultimately our views & feelings don't count

Nancy

This is why they cry 'transssphobiaaaaaaa' so loudly, they get a mere hint of what it's actually like to be a woman and think it's absolutely outrageous. And the fact that everyone actually knows they are men is why they take it so seriously and this trans campaign has achieved more in public opinion and law changes in 5 years than the women's movement did in 200.

i would also add that it's women BEING NICE that got us into this mess. We really need to learn from this. it is not our job to babysit the hurt feelings of the entire world. I have sympathy but not my problem.

Being nice is a really rubbish strategy for women's rights. That's how they've got away with so much for so long and we are now clearing up a very big mess. The fact they shout so loud, in effect 'you big meanies' suggest they think it's women's work. It's not.

A slight aside from watching that clip that Datun posted, but it has struck me how, bar Shon Faye, most of these 'amazing, inspirational, charismatic' trans women who are being selected to speak and advise on this that and the other, are so inarticulate and can barely string a sentence together at times. And that's very obviously because their argument just doesn't hold water.

Shon Faye does just talk total shite, but at least SF does it in an intelligent and articulate way, and can be quite witty. SF is good at twisting things around and doing the mental gymnastics required to buy into the 'trans women are women' dogma. He trained as a lawyer didn't he? In fact, if I didn't disagree with SF on almost every level I think I would quite enjoy listening to SF and reading SFs twitter!

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz + light 💤

Sorry, mean to say 'SF trained as a lawyer didn't SF'?

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This Shon Faye?

Rose

So sorry you feel bored by the safeguarding of children, and that the fact the NSPCC have completely capitulated on keeping girls safe.

i wonder if you can define what a woman is, then we can all go home reassured?

No idea what happened there, meant to attach three tweets, this one is missing.

Shon Faye absolutely LOATHES women and girls.