AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

[AgnesBadenPowell]

@KERALA1 I'm still catching up on posts and have just read yours properly .

I cannot believe that you were put in that position. Did I read it right, you had two students so the other girl had to share a room with a transgirl? I wonder if she or her parents had consented to that? This is exactly the sort of scenario I worry about (along with all the other issues around what it means to be female, having a safe girl only space free of Gendered assumptions or stereotypes).

May I ask, after that, did you continue to host students?

[GrimDamnFanjo]

What really disturbs me is GGA is basically the only boy free space girls have. What about very religious Muslim girls?

[Clarissalarissa]

My DD is in a youth group that holds several residentials a year. They sent out a letter mentioning that the children would share accommodation with others of the same gender. I wrote back, pointing out that sex and gender have different meanings now, and had they meant to say sex? They said no, had purposely said gender. I wrote back again mentioning the risk of pregnancy, and expressing my concern that they were doing this before the law had even changed. They sent back a rather shocked letter saying that they would be very careful about safeguarding. Don't know what that will mean in practice though. I don't believe they had bothered to think the consequences through.
Parents should be challenging this, loudly and in great numbers.

[Clarissalarissa]

I can't imagine many (or frankly any) Muslim families allowing their daughter on a residential trip if there is a risk of her having to share a dormitory and shower room with a boy. It's not uncommon for Muslim parents not to allow a girl to go on a school trip, even if the sleeping arrangements are sex segregated.

[Kokeshi123]

I don’t think I can run a unit where at least one member is so tied into stereotypes they are attempting to literally embody one.

This, with bells on.

Early transitioning transwomen are practically always sexually attracted to men not women, so I think that it would be unlikely that we would see sexual threats to teenage girls from them (cross-dressers wanting to be adult leaders are a different matter, that said...).

But yeah, how are we supposed to be saying simultaneously "Girls shouldn't feel like they have to like pink and makeup/Boys can like these things too if they like" and also "This person has decided that they are going to live as a girl because they like pink and makeup and after all, only girls actually like those things and if you like those things then it is a sign that you are really a girl."

[SemaMjinga]

Someone has asked GG about this, on Twitter....

mobile.twitter.com/mintyylamb/status/970753226042724354?s=21

[staySeated]

@Clarissalarissa

Are you worried about catching a baby from a toilet seat or rape or that your daughter will have sex because there's someone with a penis in the room?

" I wrote back, pointing out that sex and gender have different meanings now, and had they meant to say sex?"

Fuck. People do this in real life? I assumed that this was one of those weird 'I-think-you-meant-sex/gender' comments people only make on MN.

[Iminthecclubnow]

stayseated so do you think we should just do away with sex segregation on these sorts of trips altogether? Or any school trip? Boys and girls just in together?

[Iminthecclubnow]

Early transitioning transwomen are practically always sexually attracted to men not women

I don't think that is true is it?

[Iminthecclubnow]

I like it when these threads make it out into Chat or AIBU because there is a much wider opinion on it. But I still haven't seen anything to make me think that self id, therefore getting rid of sex based segregation in all the situations we currently have sex segregation, is a good idea.

[Dipitydoda]

I can’t wait for this current trend of pushing trans rights over everyone else’s rights to be over. The simple answer of course is to seperate all changing facilities, single sex activities and accommodation according to what chromosomes you have (usually shown by he contents of your pants)

[staySeated]

@Iminthecclubnow

How segregated do these things need to be? I lost my virginity on a school trip. We sneaked out of segregated dorms.

I think you're teaching your daughters to be afraid of boys for no reason.

[picklemepopcorn]

Lily Madigan is 20, and transitioned while in sixth form. They would have been wrestling with their identity and sexuality while in the current 14-25 age group of guiding. I would not have wanted Lily sharing a room with my daughter.

[staySeated]

I wouldn't want my son in with Rosemary West. What's your point Popcorn?

[CapnHaddock]

There are very good reasons for girls and women to br afraid of men but that isn't the point. The point here is that girl guiding is for girls. If it's mixed sex,it's just guiding.

[Iminthecclubnow]

stayseated What if teenage girls just don't want to be in with boys? What if they don't want to get changed with boys, sleep in the same room as boys, come out the shower with boys? That is a perfectly normal and valid thing isn't it, and nothing to do with their parents teaching them to be afraid of boys. Or do their feelings jist not matter anymore?

I am a primary school teacher, and from year 4 upwards the children are segregated for getting changed for PE. Because it is widely recognised that that is an age at which children may start to become uncomfortable with changing around people of the opposite sex.

You see to be saying don't bother with sex segregation at all?

[MaureenNervosa]

The point is that people are upset about the change of policy because it says that young females (and their parents) are not allowed to have a choice about putting the feelings of boys first.

I am concerned that you seem to be saying it is okay to remove female only spaces because all they do is teach girls to be afraid of boys. That kind of equation reduces girls to nothing more than objects.

[picklemepopcorn]

I'm not sure why Rosemary West is relevant. What's your point?

My point is that a boy in a girl's area is a problem. We segregate by sex to keep children safe. It is not safe, or fair, to force young girls to share with boys who may well be older and stronger than them.

[TerranceandPhilip]

this is a group for you, girls, because females can do anything

Except share it seems.....

[CapnHaddock]

Talking of women sharing, I read in the paper today that women are FIVE TIMES more likely to give their husband a kidney than vice versa.

Women are very good at sharing. Men continually take advantage of that bit of our socialisation

[AgnesBadenPowell]

If you haven't seen the twitter link upthread, here is the statement from GGUK in answer a the question of whether biological boys share tents with girls without their parents being informed.


"As an organisation dedicated to supporting girls and young women we have robust processes and procedures which are updated on an ongoing basis to ensure all girls and young women who are part of guiding are supported to have a fun, safe and positive time.

The well being of all our young members is always at the heart of everything we do and will continue to be. If a young person doesn’t feel comfortable sharing accommodation,
for whatever reason, we encourage them to talk to their leader about alternative accommodation and facilities."

As one poster on Twitter said, what if a girl doesn't feel able to ask for alternative accommodation, because she's shy, been socialised not to ask for things or be difficult, or because she's frightened of being labelled a transphobe?

What if a girl feels comfortable sharing with a biological boy but her parents don't?

[CapnHaddock]

You don't have 'robust processes and procedures in place' if you allow girls to share their intimate space unknowingly with boys. That's a nonsense.

[BigDeskBob]

"this is a group for you, girls, because females can do anything

Except share it seems....."

That's part of why boys and men want to be included in girls and women's groups. They can't cope with girls having something for themselves, so take it away from them. Of course, they blame girls for this, so it becomes a fault of girls 'not sharing' rather than boys just taking.

[HandbagKrabby]

Girls from conservative religions/cultures?
Go somewhere else.

Girls with backgrounds of male violence towards women and girls?
Go somewhere else.

Girls who’ve been sexually abused by males?
Go somewhere else.

Girls who don’t feel like stereotypical girls?
Go somewhere else.

Girls with parents that don’t want them socialising in mixed sex environments?
Go somewhere else.

Adults who don’t want to volunteer in organisations where they will be responsible for potential safeguarding issues arising from this policy change?
Go somewhere else.

Adult female volunteers who don’t want to share sleeping or cleaning space with male sex bodied volunteers?
Go somewhere else.

Where? Where is the else? Because it was places like the Girl Guides but now it’s the home or private member clubs. But you know, this is what inclusive progress looks like isn’t it?

[staySeated]

@MaureenNervosa

Male-only spaces seem to be being eroded in the name of equality.

Some silly parents were arguing that a mixed sex football team should be the default (young primary school age) when there weren't enough girls to make their own team. Boys now don't have a safe male space. It's being encroached on by be-vaginaed people.

Masons. Scouts. Cubs. Beavers.

@BigDeskBob

Oh the irony.

I think that what confuses so many of us who don't lie awake worrying about 'the erosion of women and female-only spaces' is that the same anti-trans people are the ones who also lose their shit when they think they're being excluded by men / the patriarchy. The hypocrisy is so stupid it makes me squint a little.