AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

I just asked my very sensible 12 yr old scout dd about sharing a tent/room with a trans girl - ‘as long as it wasn’t just me and them in the room, that there was another born girl with me I’d be okay with it’.

That too, Panic. Exactly that.

Sorry for disappearing, I've been at Rainbows tonight.

It really hit home that these are wonderful girls with so much potential - and GGUK is already imposing a gender stereotype on them, denying their biology and overriding their ability to make their own choices and assert their boundaries. I will protect them as much as I can but how much can one guider do?

Even at this young age (5-7), they already talk about what girls and boys can and can't do. We involve them in our all unit decisions, give them a voice, make sure no one is left out and hopefully give them confidence that they can be whatever they want when they grow up. We try to teach them about being kind and helpful - it's part of the rainbow promise - but I fear with the new policy, it's nurturing an attitude of giving way to whatever a boy or man wants, because no one likes a "difficult" woman.

GGUK has always been an inclusive organisation. In my unit, 25% have English as an additional language. There are SEN issues, disabilities - and GGUK has always trained and empowered leaders to make our unit meetings and events accessible to all. If one girl can't participate in an activity, then we adapt so everyone can. I can't understand why GG is now determined to excluded so many girls, when a few changes to the policy would make it accessible again.

I’m not sure why people in Scouts think this isn’t their issue because they are a mixed sex organisation. Your camps have segregated sleeping. A boy who self ID’ed as female could insist to be in the girls’ accommodation. Same issue as guides.
I work in girls’ boarding and while it hasn’t raised its head yet (we had a gender fluid girl boarding with us occasionally last year, but as she was of the female sex it was not an issue - I use she as the pronoun of choice of the actual girl) I’m comcerned as to what happens when boys in school realise this.

Agnes

I really, really hear you. What a tough spot for you. You've been brave even speaking up thus far. I can hear how much you care about your girls and about GirlGuiding. It's so sad.

Chin up, this seems to be gathering momentum, hopefully they will see sense.

x

Numerous times it has come up that GGA residential spaces don’t easily accommodate both sexes. Scouting has been mixed for years and so does cater for mixed sexes, we aren’t as caught up in protecting girls only spaces so we can actually protect their space. Scouting has a bit more freedom in this area because we deal with both sexes and there is already requirements and recommendations around mixed sleeping that involve informed choice of parents and our youth.
I think the GGA has shot its self in the foot with this policy and will pay for it in the long run. The aggressive TRA movement want to challenge any women only space - therefore scouting isn’t a target because we aren’t a girls only space. The powers that be in the GGA are desperate to be seen as fair and inclusive and so haven’t really thought this policy through properly.

I think the world is going to contract massively for many girls now. Things are going to be closed off to many of them due to this craziness. There are going to be certain types of girl who’ll be able to cope in such an environment - confident ones who haven’t been abused and who can defend themselves - but so many more will end up self excluding for whatever reasons - religion, abuse, autism, disabilities, shyness, lack of confidence etc.

Exclusion will become the norm.

Just caught up after Rangers.
Something else that shows the ridiculousness of this policy.

Later this year we are going to a large scale guide camp - some 3000 girls camping for a week.
All males over 10 have to camp in a separate sub camp away from the girls. This means that the son of one of our leaders, who will be just 10, will not be allowed to stay with our group at night where he would sleep in the same tent as his mother. Instead he has to sleep on the subcamp. However a transgirl
(male bodied) would be allowed to sleep in the same tent and to shower with the girls and we would not be permitted to tell the parents or the other girls. If they don't like it they can stay at home, seems to be the message.

And that is total madness!!!!

@Screaminginsideme I agree that Scouts are much better equipped for mixed sex events.

But don't forget that Scouts also accept self identification when it comes to gender. So a boy who says he's a girl can share with the girls while the other boys are in their own tents. And vice versa.

@Screaminginsideme I don't know if Scouting requires that parents be informed if a transchild will be sharing with children of their acquired gender. GG parents won't be. I understand the need for privacy and discretion but as a leader I would not feel able to take children on a residential with what is effectively mixed sex accommodation and not inform the parents, or discuss it with the other children so a consensus can be reached within the group about the best arrangements.

This isn't a trans thing as such - I would always let the girls my care decide who they want to share with, or at least give them some options. and would only step in if I thought there was bullying.

I was a brownie, guide, ranger and young leader. I loved every minute of it, especially camps.
It was a safe space away from abuse at home and whilst in care. The leaders were real role models who changed my life.
I would never have felt able to take part if there were men involved.

I barely post on any trans threads about children because they make me so angry I struggle to find the words. I haven't read all the posts on this thread.

EVERY PARENT SHOULD READ OP'S OTHER THREAD

Even if you think feminists are man hating TERFy arseholes, or just boring. This is a parenting website where I assume we all care about children.

I've been following this agenda for a long time now and nothing much shocks me any more. The responses OP and another poster received, not just from Girlguiding but from NSPCC, about their safeguarding concerns, are absolutely jaw-dropping.

If you've properly looked into everything and thought about it and you've come to the conclusion it's all totally fine then fair enough. I might doubt your sanity but that's for another thread.

Thankyou for raising this issue op. I have read a lot on the issues and I have come to the conclusion that the self ID proposals will really damage and compromise the rights of trans people, women, children and gay people. It is cruelty dressed as liberalism. Any one who really looks into it cannot fail to be appalled.

Haven't read whole thread, but have you written to all parents to explain the new policy, so that they do at least realise that at any residential trip there may be a male bodied child in the girls' form and showers? They will at least then have the option of not sending their daughter on residentials. If there is a possibility of male to female trans being guide leaders in charge of the girls' accommodation and showers, that is arguably even more worrying. That is just the kind of job that a paedophile would target.

I wouldn't expect others to be given a choice about sharing with a transgender person, that would be like asking permission for your child to share with someone who was gay or black, obviously wrong.
A black or lesbian girl cannot get your daughter pregnant.
I would not allow my daughter to share sleeping space with someone who could get her pregnant.
A 14 year old transgirl may feel like a girl, but they have the body and hormones of a 14 year old boy. I don't understand how people are willing to completely dismiss that.

I just asked my very sensible 12 yr old scout dd about sharing a tent/room with a trans girl - ‘as long as it wasn’t just me and them in the room, that there was another born girl with me I’d be okay with it’.
The point is, neither your 12 year old or you would even be told. If your daughter wasn't comfortable, she wouldn't have the right to complain. She has to either put up with it, or leave and be labelled a transphobe.

The boy would likely still be sexually attracted to girls, too.
And how about the male to female trans adult who is supervising the girls' dorm and shower room?

This will affect school residential trips of course. My guess is that if there is a "trans child" in the year group the school will take the easy option and simply not organise any residential trips. Not sure what will happen with compulsory geography field trips.

What on earth will happen when a boy at boarding school decides he is a girl? They are strict about single sex boarding houses.

@Clarissalarissa that's a really good question about boarding schools and one I've asked myself when I was researching my letter to GGHQ. Each school is different but from some advice posted on various solicitors' website - there's no easy answer. A single room rather than sharing was the most common option I saw, with ensuite facilities if available. But not all schools will be able to accommodate that.

Clarissalarissa makes a good point. What would be the response if you did email or somehow communicate the new guidelines to the parents OP?

Read the post about your troop tonight, OP. It made me also think how sad it is that, while we have had years of little girls feeling like boys get to do more and are better at things, we now are faced with girls being shown that boys are also even better at being girls. (Winning in sports - endorsements & scholarships, woman of the year, business woman of the year, women's shortlist, not to mention stating publicly that they are more women than women). Sigh.

I'm a Guide leader and I don't know what I would do if i was in this situation in my unit. I would feel uncomfortable sharing a tent or room with a make bodied adult volunteer too - and I've never been in a residential building which has single rooms, tbh.
I got a newsletter email yesterday telling me about a new Peer Education resource launching : This month a new Peer Education resource, Breaking Free, is launched.

It aims to enable girls to ask “what is gender?” and “what is a stereotype and why is it a problem?” and empowers them to identify and challenge stereotypes and to be true to themselves, not letting their gender be a barrier to them.

I haven't made myself look at it yet because I don't know how it can be gender critical and embrace the self ID approach, and I don't want to feel at odds with an organisation that is a huge part of my life, that I believe in.

There was a woman in the radio talking about independent girls schools ( she was the head of some Indy girls school organisation) she kept saying each boy saying he was a girl would be treated with on an individual basis & what was best for his needs would be taken into account & gone along with, the basic outcome was that yes, boys would be allowed to go to girls schools. If they subsequently decided that they weren’t a girl anymore they would be allowed to stay in the girls school if they wanted because everyone would concentrate in what was best for them.
The unsaid part of that was sod what the actual girls or their parents want, they don’t get a choice.

Squirrel - the resource looks ok.