weddings, cutlery, bread and wine

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

I've been at a few weddings recently in lovely hotels with 3-course wedding breakfasts where the bride, groom and a lot of the guests are blatantly confused by the cutlery.

At DBIL's wedding neither he, new DSIL or her parents had a clue what to use. Poor MIL had to whisper what to do to them - and will probably turn up as an interfering MIL in AIBU herself because of it

Whilst I don't think anyone should have to know what cutlery to use AIBU to think the hotel could at least give the bride and groom a few tips beforehand? Maybe in the paperwork so it's not patronising in any way.

If I didn't know I would like to know so I didn't make a plum of myself at my own wedding.

Not much you can do about the guests I guess but it's mighty irritating to find someone has snaffled your bread roll or one of your wine glasses because they don't know which side is which and the ensuing kerfuffle as the spare one is tracked down.

the only socially acceptable life choices

Ok so your misreading of text is a pattern. I said nothing about acceptable life choices, simply pointing out all the scenarios in which this stuff is necessary.

I am not spending hours instructing my kids on formal dining 'just in case' they ever have to go to a formal dinner. Its easy to explain to them how to do it in under 15 minutes. "Do this, that and the next thing, dont do this." Done.

Exactly my point! It doesn’t even take 15 mins. More like 5. So why make all this fuss?

Which is so not the point. Many students from state schools report feeling like outsiders in a culture they’re not used to. Which can be avoided if they already know how to deal with things like formal dinners.

Or, rather than the state school students being expected to mimic upper class behaviours, we could change the culture of the place to be more accommodating and diverse.

Perhaps?

Or, rather than the state school students being expected to mimic upper class behaviours, we could change the culture of the place to be more accommodating and diverse.

‘Upper class’ really? All they’re doing is eating a meal in a big hall.

‘Upper class’ really? All they’re doing is eating a meal in a big hall.

So what you are saying is, that students from state schools don't know how to eat with fork and knife and use a spoon? Because that's rather the only thing I imagine students in a big hall would do.

I dont consider a basic meal in a restaurant 'formal dining' its pretty easy to work out. Oh a soup spoon, I am not having soup so I will leave it there, oh a knife and fork for my main course I will use them, pudding spoon and fork, hmmm what to do with them... ahhh eat my pudding!
None of the restaurants we use have multiple layers of cutlery. If you order steak the specific cutlery will come with the meal so its not sitting on the table unused.

She is obviously also concerned about how to cut and eat a bread roll... not something I have ever seen anyone in a restaurant have angst about.

If it’s just dinner in a big hall, why is it intimidating to state school pupils? And why do they need to learn particular etiquette to participate without feeling uncomfortable?

After all, they’ve likely had year of eating in a big hall at school.

years

Elton I was thinking of that Betjeman poem too, thanks for the full version. He is very cruel about pretentious people who want to emulate what they see as proper formal behaviour but fail. Probably single-handedly did for fish knives (though they're great for filleted fish!).

There are basic manners - eg, unless invited don't start until everyone else is served, don't stuff your mouth, don't double dip, don't eat with your mouth open gross - and do talk while you eat. Then there's etiquette.

I was caught out by asparagus having been brought up outside Europe. My shame aged 14 at starting with a knife and fork .... to say nothing of artichokes.

If it’s just dinner in a big hall, why is it intimidating to state school pupils?

I don’t know why really, it’s something that comes up in feedback from state pupils. It’s not a question of learning etiquette so much as feeling comfortable in that environment.

I dont consider a basic meal in a restaurant 'formal dining' its pretty easy to work out

It is technically formal dining nonetheless. It’s easy to work out. But yet the people the OP had difficulty. I guess they didn’t know you didn’t start from the outside and work in.

Super formal events are simply adding to those basics - perhaps more cutlery, more glasses.

Tatania you really are coming across very Hyacinth Bucket with your ‘formal dining’. That was part of the joke about her ‘candlelit suppers’, that she was unnecessarily formalising something which should be quite relaxed in order to appear sophisticated when it actually made her look very gauche.

I don’t know why really, it’s something that comes up in feedback from state pupils. It’s not a question of learning etiquette so much as feeling comfortable in that environment.

Perhaps it’s because it isn’t just dinner in a big hall like they’ve done for years in school. Maybe it’s dinner in a big hall laid with lots of traps designed to expose you are an interloper in a world of people who’ve been eating ‘the right way’ in big halls in their public schools for years.

And then all the myriad other ways the culture is designed to let you know that you don’t really belong.

It’s very easy to sit there and claim that there are just a few quick rules they can learn and behaviours they can adopt to fit in. But each of these quick rules add up. And the overall message is still that you and your culture aren’t good enough and you need to change. Add to that the cost of having the right clothing for each of the occasions that come up, and so on, and you can start to understand the persistent lack of diversity. And that’s just the students who actually get past the admissions system.

But hey, it’s just dinner in a big hall isn’t it?

This is one of those threads that makes me feel like I need to take a break from mumsnet.

This is one of those threads that makes me feel like I need to take a break from mumsnet.

I almost broke my pearl necklace and my smelling salts are almost gone.

All the people saying the rules don’t matter are the ones who know them and have the option of disregarding them.

If you don't care , fair enough, but the OP does - hence her thread

The thread is not about caring about table etiquette or judging. The AIBU was wondering if it might be helpful for people to have something to check - if they want to use it. Up to them if they don't.

It's not that she cares though, its that she's judging others.

No I'm not.

Not necessarily. I have no idea what the debrett’s approved method of eating asparagus is. I didn’t know that it was ‘wrong’ to cut your roll until I read it on MN - and I never remember the ‘rule’ so when I do it in public I’m not purposefully breaking it. I’m just eating my roll.

I can never remember which side is my roll or glass either. But, IME, no one else at the table ever knows either so we all just come to an accommodation to ensure everyone gets a roll and a glass. Because in the real world no one is fretting it being an arse about the stuff people get angsty about on MN.

I’m sure there are a million things about me that mark me out as ‘non-U’ that I’m not aware of. I’m sure someone would probably judge that if choise to use the teaspoon to eat my dessert instead of the dessert spoon. I’ve never really thought about it in terms of ‘etiquette’ because it makes no difference to anyone but me.

If you took MN seriously, you’d be seriously anxious about offending everyone and anything. No one would ever get married because there is no way to win on MN. And you’d think everyone had a huge brochure style kitchen with bifold doors, island and table and multiple reception rooms in their house. And so on.

Never mind how he held his knife - a mere detail - always eating with his mouth open, talking with a mouth full of food, slurping, pig noises, shovelling so much food in that he'd regularly spill some down himself, etc.

GETTING pretty sure your friend is my mother. Deceased and male notwithstanding, that description is unmistakeable.

I learned it from years of waitressing. This is a good diagram of table settings if you aren't sure if you are nicking your next door neighbours side plate or glass.

media.gettyimages.com/vectors/diagram-of-a-formal-table-setting-vector-vector-id470995582

Apart from that, chewing with your mouth shut is probably the only table 'manner' that matters to me - that and people who don't turn away to cough. That gives me the boak.

Elton

You’ve completely missed the point. What people are labelling ‘formal dining’ is fairly standard and relaxed. You’re doing it all the time if you go to restaurants. That’s all it is. Not nonsense with reams of cutlery and candleabra.

If you know what side of your plate your knife and fork go on, and that you'd normally reach for your drink with your right hand, that's pretty much the basics of table setting.

After that it's just extra cutlery and glasses in the same spot. Work from the outside in and the dessert you get dictates whether you use the fork or dessert spoon. Puddings, Ice-cream etc = spoon. Chocolate cake, tarts etc probably a fork works better. But if you prefer to use the spoon, why not?

What Unimaginative said.

If they wanted to be inclusive and stop students feeling uncomfortable they could stop all the unecessary 'dinner' nonsense and having to have enough ££££ to have the right suit/shoes/dress/tiara and just have dinner instead! You know a chance to get together and meet other people and chat, I know its kind of left field thinking but it could work?

Manners is only about consideration for others, not rules. Cutlery rules are old hat in my opinion. I hate eating with people with bad table manners, noisy open mouth chewing, elbows all over. talking with a mouthful, just not a joy. i dont care how they use the cutlery if it doesnt spoil my meal. If people have an interest in formal manners they will take the trouble to find out. Plenty of people ask the person next to you about cutlery order, or just slow down and watch what others are doing. Doesnt need teaching really, many learn by following good examples

So many posters on this thread sound like snobbish idiot wankers.