weddings, cutlery, bread and wine

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

I've been at a few weddings recently in lovely hotels with 3-course wedding breakfasts where the bride, groom and a lot of the guests are blatantly confused by the cutlery.

At DBIL's wedding neither he, new DSIL or her parents had a clue what to use. Poor MIL had to whisper what to do to them - and will probably turn up as an interfering MIL in AIBU herself because of it

Whilst I don't think anyone should have to know what cutlery to use AIBU to think the hotel could at least give the bride and groom a few tips beforehand? Maybe in the paperwork so it's not patronising in any way.

If I didn't know I would like to know so I didn't make a plum of myself at my own wedding.

Not much you can do about the guests I guess but it's mighty irritating to find someone has snaffled your bread roll or one of your wine glasses because they don't know which side is which and the ensuing kerfuffle as the spare one is tracked down.

All this discussion of fish knives reminded me of this:

How To Get On In Society by John Betjeman
Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me.

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

Fish knives are NOT done.

It’s never a place that requires the ability to tell the difference between a starter and a dessert fork. And if it did, no one would care if you used the wrong one

So it’s never a French or Italian with 2-3 courses - as is standard. Really? I wonder how you managed to avoid them.

You might be surprised to learn that lots of French and Italian restaurants are not weird uptight places with 27 types of cutlery.

You might be surprise to learn that 2-3 courses are standard in French and Italian restaurants, so you may need to distinguish your cutlery, and know the side plate on the left is yours and not your neighbours.

Who was ever talking about 27 types?

There's a big, clear difference between table manners (not making the meal unpleasant or difficult for other people) and formal dining etiquette, which is not that important. So knowing which side plate, glass, bread roll etc is yours does matter purely so that everyone gets a plate and a roll and a glass, if you are sitting round a table with others.
Stuff like closing your mouth when eating, asking for something to be passed to you rather than leaning across the table and grabbing also matters.

I've taught DS that licking your plate is only permissible at home when it's just us - or at Nana's house because she does it too.

When I was in my late teens, learning to use chopsticks was 'cool' (because I am old enough that Chinese/Vietnamese etc restaurants were still a bit of a novelty where I grew up) though I have never been very good with them.

Oooh Clandestino, I love William Hanson. He is such an epic troll.

This is parenting, not something for schools to teach. And if my wedding venue tried to give me information on table manners I would assume that their main clientele had none and would book elsewhere.

Not even a Christmas or leaving dinner in 20 years?

We organise our own leaving dos. Often in a local pub. Or the Turkish restaurant round the corner from work because it’s convenient and pretty cheap.

Same with Christmas dos. The university puts of a ‘ball’ for all the staff in the students’ union. It involves a buffet of beige food and a disco.

The students organise their own graduation balls, some of which involve the general mass catering with crowded tables of cutlery and crockery. But no one ever cares about what cutlery anyone is using. They’re more interested in who has illicit hip flasks and avoiding paying eye watering prices for wine.

I was at the hospital canteen while they were doing the staff Christmas lunch. Most of the seating was roped off for it and people queued up to get their food from the canteen and then their cutlery from the rack. None of the doctors or nurses needed fine dining experience or knowledge to participate in that.

But, of course, this is MN where success can only look like corporate law in London.

Plenty but nothing formal, we just went out to a nice local restaurant and had a relaxed evening enjoying the food and company

In other words a nice local restaurant with more than one course, napkins, wine - so you need to know how that works.

It’s fine for you as you know how to use it all you say, but for the person who doesn’t they may feel anxious or embarrassed even if no-one else cares.

Its not difficult with your bog standard resaurant with 3 courses available.

From the rest of the thread I presumed we are talking about formal dinners with mutliple courses, different wine glasses etc, nope I havent done that in donkeys years.

My kids go to normal restaurants pretty regularly to know how to use cutlery and a napkin and how to behave.

Tatiana, you seem determined to disagree with as many people as possible. I posted about the lack of dinner-table culture in broad agreement with your opinion and you still managed to find something to disagree with.

I look forward to seeing which part of this post you have a problem with.

Fish knives, dessert forks and lecturing other people about etiquette. Princess Margaret would never have let such a person over the threshold.

The Queen Mother would have done as long as they bought booze.

But, of course, this is MN where success can only look like corporate law in London

O rly.

Wrt universities - at Oxbridge everyone is expected to eat dinner in the halls. There may be formal dinners with gowns? How can you be sure your kids don’t end up there?

The kind of Italian restaurants I go to tend to bring your cutlery with your food. They also tend to have wine bottles with drippy candles in them on the tables and wipe clean table cloths.

There’s a great one that does 3 courses of lunch for £5. They have pots of cutlery on the table to help yourself from.

I clearly only frequent the finest establishments.

I did go to a Michelin starred restaurant with a tasting menu once and (as @whiskyowl said) they brought you cutlery with each course.

Wrt universities - at Oxbridge everyone is expected to eat dinner in the halls.

Yup. Classic MN.

WRT universities - most of them are very much not oxbridge.

Buxbaum I’m simply replying with the posters who’ve replied to me.

I’m sorry if you’re concerned I didn’t completely agree with you, would it make you feel better if I did?

I can be 100% sure that DS1 won’t be going to oxbridge. Or applying. Or considering applying. He wants to go to Dundee. Or he might do a higher apprenticeship instead.

I doubt DS2 would want to either. Odds are he won’t. Plenty of non-oxbridge universities out there. And also non-university opportunities.

The oxbridge academics I know don’t give a shit about formal dining etiquette either.

WRT universities - most of them are very much not oxbridge.

Indeed. My point is you have no idea where your kids will end up, not for uni or for work. So you can’t be sure they won’t need this stuff.

Just curious to see if you're being contrary for the sake of it.

Enjoy your debate.

Btw, it's really interesting how the post-Brexit Britain is reverting more and more to the olde good class divide.
Sometimes I feel like in the middle of a Downtown Abbey episode, with the class separated to the extent they appear to live in parallel universes and only meet when the servants' bell rings.
And it's getting stronger with each sycophantic Daily Mail's "The Queen never sneezes into a paper tissue" article.

The Durham academics don’t either.

In fact, when I’ve had dinner at Durham colleges, it was buffet style and you picked up your own cutlery.

Sorry Tatiana my kids have other plans than to go to the other end of the country to conform to your ideas of the only socially acceptable life choices.

We really dont all yearn to go to Oxford or Cambridge. There are other universities in UK you know, (the 3rd ranking Uni in UK is Scottish) and other professional career routes which dont involve university at all.

At the end of the day its a meal its not life or death. All this angst over curlery! LIfes too short. Its perfectly easy if you are stuck to ask or follow the person next to you. I am not spending hours instructing my kids on formal dining 'just in case' they ever have to go to a formal dinner. Its easy to explain to them how to do it in under 15 minutes. "Do this, that and the next thing, dont do this." Done.

My point is you have no idea where your kids will end up, not for uni or for work. So you can’t be sure they won’t need this stuff.

Yes. But I can’t be sure they won’t need to know how to do a backside 360 on the half pipe on a snowboard either. Or whether they’ll need to know how to speak Arabic. Or how to gut and skin a rabbit? Should I make sure I teach them all that just in case too?

I have taught them to be reasonably polite and sociable dining companions (or at least I’m trying to make sure that DS2 always eats with his mouth shut). If they are in s situation where they need to know which side plate is theirs, I’ll show them. I’m not teaching them that it’s wrong to cut their roll though.

If you don't care , fair enough, but the OP does - hence her thread

It's not that she cares though, its that she's judging others.

The older I get, the more ridiculous some "rules" appear. If you're not harming others then which piece of cutlery you use, or how you eat a bread roll, is irrelevant and unimportant.

Follow the basic things:
Don't eat with your mouth open/slurp etc.
Your side plate is on the left.
your wine glasses are on the right.
Wait till everyone is served before eating.

I was brought up knowing "the rules" and automatically still follow them. I don't hold my knife like a pen etc. I would never judge someone who does it differently. It's none of my business.

The oxbridge academics I know don’t give a shit about formal dining etiquette either.

Which is so not the point. Many students from state schools report feeling like outsiders in a culture they’re not used to. Which can be avoided if they already know how to deal with things like formal dinners.

^not difficult with your bog standard resaurant with 3 courses available.
From the rest of the thread I presumed we are talking about formal dinners with mutliple courses, different wine glasses etc, nope I havent done that in donkeys years. My kids go to normal restaurants pretty regularly to know how to use cutlery and a napkin and how to behave^

Why would assume that? That is formal dining. The OP is only talking about 3 courses.