weddings, cutlery, bread and wine

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

I've been at a few weddings recently in lovely hotels with 3-course wedding breakfasts where the bride, groom and a lot of the guests are blatantly confused by the cutlery.

At DBIL's wedding neither he, new DSIL or her parents had a clue what to use. Poor MIL had to whisper what to do to them - and will probably turn up as an interfering MIL in AIBU herself because of it

Whilst I don't think anyone should have to know what cutlery to use AIBU to think the hotel could at least give the bride and groom a few tips beforehand? Maybe in the paperwork so it's not patronising in any way.

If I didn't know I would like to know so I didn't make a plum of myself at my own wedding.

Not much you can do about the guests I guess but it's mighty irritating to find someone has snaffled your bread roll or one of your wine glasses because they don't know which side is which and the ensuing kerfuffle as the spare one is tracked down.

YANBU, table manners generally seem to have gone downhill. I often see people stabbing a large piece food onto a fork (ie, a roast potato) and then taking bites off it rather than cutting into bite-size chunks first. Look like bloody cavemen/women.

Parents should teach their children, just the basics of start from the outside and how to hold cutlery, also which side plate to use (though to be fair if I am unsure I just glance to person sat on the end of the table to check). I always tear roll in half, butter then eat on half at a time - though I do dunk in soup - whether or not I should

I have taught my DCs, unfortunately DS19 still spears meat with his fork and eats it like that so I just remember never to take him anywhere except fast food restaurants!

I don't think it's a middle/upper class thing either, I would call myself working class if I had to chose one. It really does save embarrassment to know these things. Having gone on a cruise with silver service might have been one of those occasions for me had I not known.

Because they never do formal dining. Ever. So they don’t need to know how to set a table for multiple courses.

They may never do formal dining as children, but it’s not true that they don’t need to know how to cope with formal dining.

If they spend the rest of their life in Nando’s and McDs it won’t matter. But they get a professional job, have work dinners, client dinners, go to restaurants, they won’t have a clue what they’re doing which will cause them embarrassment. Have you never considered that?

This is just basic life skills. It’s something that can make people feel socially awkward when they’re suddenly in an environment where everyone knows this stuff and they don’t.

This thread has made me wince. I am old with a very old school mum so have excellent Debretts style table manners. So much of it is bullshit. Who cares if people use the wrong knife and fork or slice their roll in half. As long as it travels from the plate to the moth with minimal mess and people are enjoying good food and good company the rest of it is just cultural rituals.
In my own home I have dispensed with a lot of it (no more fish knives for me), and as for having a different knife for steak and butter! I have very naice cutlery and I find that the same shape knife will cut through a nice piece or sirloin or fillet as well as it spreads butter or marmite.

If the hypothetical bride or groom were remotely bothered about how to correctly address their palace settings they could do what anyone does when confronted with a dilemma - google it beforehand.

All that being said, I hate it when people hold knives like a pencil so obviously I still have my own touch of Hyacinth Bouquet.

And I didn’t teach them to use them. They pretty much taught themselves because they wanted to.

You encouraged them to use them otherwise you would have requested knives and forks. Clearly you think it’s worth learning, despite the fact they may never go to Japan or China. They’ve learnt the skill of how to eat in Asian restaurants, but not, say French and Italian ones. They may want to learn that too.

For everyone saying parents should teach their children table manners, what about the disadvantaged children with parents who don’t read with them or help them with their homework, then they’re hardly likely to be setting a table to sit down with them and eat their turkey twizzlers are they? And it becomes yet another area where those children are let down, so even if they go on to get good jobs they then get invited to client dinners and are embarrassed because they don’t know these secret rules that everyone else seems to be in on.

Everyone will have to go to weddings, anniversaries, and potentially work dinners. So everyone needs to learn this.

Never been to a work 'dinner' apart from the Xmas nights out in my life!

It’s absoutely basic that parents should teach table manners, how to lay a table, and how to eat a formal meal with multiple courses.

We dont have room for a table! Its pretty easy to set a table for a family meal, even without a big table my kids know where the cutlery goes and how to use a knife and fork!

Not been to a 'formal meal' (wedding) in 25 years, why do people presume we are all hosting dinner parties for friends and colleagues, or trying to impress work bosses?

And I dont care a jot how someone eats a bread roll, its a bread roll, for eating ffs! Its the hight of rudeness to point out someone is not following some ancient rule on how to eat.

And I dont have time to 'google' formal etiquet, far to busy playing on my xbox

Most people eat at a table.

I'm afraid that actually, they don't. Many of the kids I teach take their meal up their bedroom. Few of them sit down at a table to each. Many fend for themselves because there is no family mealtime. Many properties, including social housing, do not have space for a family table in the kitchen or living area.

Some people on MN really do have no idea

Yet apparently you have no idea that many people set tables daily...

If they spend the rest of their life in Nando’s and McDs it won’t matter. But they get a professional job, have work dinners, client dinners, go to restaurants, they won’t have a clue what they’re doing which will cause them embarrassment. Have you never considered that?

Lots of professional jobs don’t involve formal dining of this kind. My parents had professional jobs that never required it. The eating with colleagues that I do in my job never requires intricate knowledge of fish knives. Sometimes it involves a trip to wagamamas. Or eating hot dogs/burgers from a basket and drinking too much cheap beer with distinguished professors in scuzzy bars. No one cares how anyone butters their roll.

most people have a kitchen table

No they really dont...we dont all live in large modern houses with 'farmhouse kitchens' there isnt room to swing a cat in my kitchen.

But they get a professional job, have work dinners, client dinners, go to restaurants, they won’t have a clue what they’re doing which will cause them embarrassment. Have you never considered that?

I was a professional for over 20 years, in a highly skilled job but never once had a 'formal work dinner'. Nights out were relaxed and fun.

Yet apparently you have no idea that many people set tables daily...

No. I know that some people do. And those that set out a full dinner service with napkins and side plates are over represented in MN. Same as those with kitchen and dining tables are over represented on MN.

But I also know that a great many people do not do so. Or have a table at all. Or have everyone in the house at the same time to eat together. I have read quite a lot of research on family dining practices.

I afraid that actually, they don't. Many of the kids I teach take their meal up their bedroom. Few of them sit down at a table to each. Many fend for themselves because there is no family mealtime. Many properties, including social housing, do not have space for a family table in the kitchen or living area

Families not prioritising sitting down to a meal is a completely separate issue to actually not having room for a table.

I don’t dispute some people don’t have room for a table, but it’s certainly not most.

I don’t know anyone who lives in social housing who doesn’t have a table. Although Arabic friends have traditional low tables where you sit on cushions.

Even in the very poorest housing in France and Italy there is always a table as family meals are a fundamental part of the culture.

My parents saw it as basic parenting to teach us the "correct" table manners to save us embarrassment. Ludicrous as it now sounds, my dad was commissioned as an officer from the ranks and was given an etiquette course as part of his training. I passed my knowledge to my son who has perfect table manners when required and eats like a savage at home!

I was a professional for over 20 years, in a highly skilled job but never once had a 'formal work dinner'

Not even a Christmas or leaving dinner in 20 years?

I have never encountered this as problem anywhere because people either know what cutlery to use (we've all seen Pretty Woman) or someone just tells them. There's never a big awkward scene where the bride and groom are suddenly paralysed by social awkwardness and the whole event grinds to a halt with guests thinking "if only the event organiser had done a diagram for the "pack."

95% of people know what cutlery to use, anyone else would just follow suit. If someone used the wrong knife no one would notice/ care.

Lots of professional jobs don’t involve formal dining of this kind. My parents had professional jobs that never required it. The eating with colleagues that I do in my job never requires intricate knowledge of fish knives. Sometimes it involves a trip to wagamamas. Or eating hot dogs/burgers from a basket and drinking too much cheap beer with distinguished professors in scuzzy bars. No one cares how anyone butters their roll.

So basically it’s pure pot luck that you’ve ended up in Wagamama’s not a French or Italian place.

I don’t care how anyone butters their roll btw.

My DF was extremely hot on table manners, which could make mealtimes a pain at times - Elbows off the table! Sit up straight! Put that down and CUT it! Close your mouth! Etc.
But I was grateful later.

We had a friend, no longer with us, whose table manners were truly appalling. Never mind how he held his knife - a mere detail - always eating with his mouth open, talking with a mouth full of food, slurping, pig noises, shovelling so much food in that he'd regularly spill some down himself, etc.
When eating with him, whether at home or out, there was always a battle in my family - me and dds anyway - NOT to be the one sitting opposite him.

Evidently he was not taught table manners as a child, but he'd had quite high powered jobs and was well used to high end hotels and restaurants, so it amazes me that he never picked up table manners that didn't make other people cringe/feel sick.

Lots of professional jobs do require exactly this kind of knowledge. And the socialising that goes with it. If you don’t know what jobs your children will do you have no guarantee that they don’t need to know this stuff.

It takes all of 5 mins to teach, why make such a song and dance about it?

If you use a large knife and fork for the starter you may find you are trying to eat the steak with a mini knife and fork designed to be used for a fish mousse. Good luck with that.

@AllisLost, not sure how about you but sofar in every restaurant, even the very good ones I was brought a special knife for my steak.

So basically it’s pure pot luck that you’ve ended up in Wagamama’s not a French or Italian place.

It’s never a place that requires the ability to tell the difference between a starter and a dessert fork. And if it did, no one would care if you used the wrong one.

You might be surprised to learn that lots of French and Italian restaurants are not weird uptight places with 27 types of cutlery.

I think it would be very patronising to include tips for the bride and groom on how to use the cutlery at their reception; would they have to pass the info on to their guests?

Not even a Christmas or leaving dinner in 20 years?

Plenty but nothing formal, we just went out to a nice local restaurant and had a relaxed evening enjoying the food and company.

Most of us considered that more important than watching how many people will trip up over the 'wrong' cutlery.

I ^know^ how to use formal cutlery just havent needed to in donkeys years.

I think it would be very patronising to include tips for the bride and groom on how to use the cutlery at their reception; would they have to pass the info on to their guests?

the OP is probably going to spend the next wedding volunteering as the local William Hanson:

Dear guests, if you don't want to look like common muck, here's the rules to follow .........
Also, it makes you look more upper class if you do this ....
And by the way, our Queen also does this ..... and would never do this .....
Now go and eat, mob!