To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

[Lilyyulelog]

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

"For those of you that find it difficult to acknowledge me as a woman, I wonder, If we were to find ourselves working in the same company, would you be able to be civil and use 'she' pronouns and refer to me as a woman? Or would you find that too challenging and insist on referring to me as he, trans identifying male or any of the other slurs that are used here?"

Of course I would. Doesn't mean that I actually believe you are a women. You know women can fake it, don't you.

I don't believe that would happen. Out of interest, would you mind your 13 yo sharing with a 16 yo lesbian?

FFS why do people constantly try to make out that lesbian s are the same as fucking men. Its deeply homophobic and really not on. A lesbian is a woman. A female person. Not a male. It is male people who commit almost all sexual attacks against women, not lesbians.

I really am sick to death of this 'what about the lesbians' argument when people are concerned about male violence. Its even worse than the 'but intersex' arguments. Lesbians are not men, and intersex is nothing to do with trans. And self-ID is bullshit that will do nothing to improve the lives of transsexual people, but will do everything to allow predatory males more chance to be predatory. I have came to the conclusion hat anyone who actually understands what self-ID is, and still supports it, is a raging misogynist. And also that anyone who uses the 'but lesbians' argument is clearly homophobic.

If you're born with standard biologically female parts & you don't feel weird about it you're a woman.
If you're born with standard biologically male parts & you don't feel weird about it you're a man.
If you're born with both you get to choose which seems more natural to you.
If you're born with standard biologically female parts & you do feel weird about it enough to have surgery then you're a pre-op / post-op transsexual who will be a man.
If you're born with standard biologically male parts & you do feel weird about it enough to have surgery then you're a pre-op / post-op transsexual who will be a woman.
If you don't feel weird enough about your body to have an operation but you spend your whole life dressing & acting like the other sex and just get on with it without making a fuss then no-one will really care what you call yourself because they won't know different.
If you only dress up like the opposite sex sometimes when it's convenient for your cause or just make a big song and dance about identifying as something different to what you were born then you're not transsexual, you're attention-seeking - it's a whole separate section and the only people who will agree with your claims are fellow troublemakers wanting their 15 minutes of fame.
Simple really.

I don't believe that would happen. Out of interest, would you mind your 13 yo sharing with a 16 yo lesbian?

FFS why do you assume I asked that question because I think lesbians are the same as men?!!! I have explained multiple times that I was just interested to see what bigots like yourself think. I wasn't in anyway suggesting I personally think they are the same. As I explained multiple times (but you obviously can't read), my DD is lesbian and certainly is not a "fucking" man.

Its pointless saying 'it will be ok'. There is a multiple rapist in a women's prison, right now.
Womens sports are being dominated by trans women. Its already happened.

Exactly. These 'it will never happen' argument is a bit daft, as its already happening. Businesses and such are acting as if self-ID is already law, and this change that transactivists are pushing for will render the exceptions useless anyway. I mean, if we already have male rapists in womens prisons, befopre self-ID is law, then what hope is there? These rapists may well have a GRC, and this could be why they were moved, but this makes me even more concerned as if a GRC is much easier to get, then there will be even more men in womens prisons. On the other hand I (luckily) see nothing from transmen desperate to be accessing male prisons, or male spaces. I am so glad of that as clearly a female in male areas would be at risk. One story I have seen of a transman wanting into the male changing rooms, and they were denied as the men were uncomfortable seeing boobs in their changing rooms. yet, when women complain they need to be 'educated' and are labelled transphobic and told to shut up.

They have the power in the law.

For now. But even though the exceptions are currently there, places are scared to act on them because of the backlash from MRA type transactivists who attack businesses for saying that male and female are real things and separate from each other and that penises belong in the male areas.

The trans community consider it incredibly offensive when you say « trans women are not women.

I have actually found that transsexual people accept that they are their sex. Transwomen do not mind being called transwomen, and will accept that they are male. Its these new 'female penis' type transgender people who have huge issues with anyone saying that transwomen are not women. Or even that there are differences between transwomen and women. So basically, I really do not see the issue with saying 'transwomen are transwomen' or 'transwomen are male' as it is objective truth. And I have yet to see a transsexual person take issue with this and scream they that are actually women.

FFS why do you assume I asked that question because I think lesbians are the same as men?!!!

Because you asked the question in retaliation to someone saying would you be happy with your daughter sharing a room with a 16 year old male. Was pretty obvious what you were implying tbh

I love how you have decided I am the bigot, when you have clearly been lesbophobic on this thread

I do get the feeling that you are still not getting your head round the fact that what concerns us is not individual transwomen but the legal ramifications.

You come across as perfectly nice and reasonable. You also have the good fortune to pass. The transwomen I've known in RL are also perfectly nice people.

But the law does not deal at the level of individuals, it deals at the level of whole classes of people. So what working definition do we have which allows you to continue to use the women's toilets, as you have done, but keeps out the chap a few posts ago with the baseball bat over his shoulder? How do we achieve that on a legal level? You want to make refusing to let transwomen into women's toilets an act of illegal discrimination - does that generalise to women's prisons, rape crisis centres, homeless shelters? And if not, why not? What are the legal criteria here?

What we want is a legal framework which will keep that bloke with the baseball bat out of women's safe spaces - for very, very obvious reasons. The question is how to achieve that. Simply saying "but a lot, if not most, transwomen are perfectly nice at the level of individuals" does not help us achieve that. We know it to be true, but it doesn't sort the legal problem one little bit. Which is that we need a legal framework to stop Mr Baseballbat rocking up at a rape crisis centre, applying for a job there, then suing them into bankruptcy if they don't give him the job.

The self id thing has really upset her. She feels that it completely trivialises her experience and doesn't want the private spaces she underwent so much to be entitled to invaded by men.

Yes, this is the opinion of the transsexual people I know too. They say that self-ID makes a mockery of the journey they have been through. That if someone actually 'felt like a woman' (though oddly enough none of them have ever been able to tell me what feeling like a woman means) they would take steps to become one, not just start ranting on about how their male body is actually female, and barging into womens spaces declaring that biology is irrelevant and that sex segregated areas are actually segregated on gender.

They are also concerned, as they use female areas to escape male violence. where, if any male can come on in, the male violence will now be in female areas too. So, along with women, transsexual people (who have been using female areas for a long time with no problems) are being thrown under the bus. Yet..people who care about this are bigots. You have to laugh really, else you would cry.

Also I know its not possible to 'become' a woman. That was badly worded. What I mean is resemble a woman so that their dysphoria is eased.

Because you asked the question in retaliation to someone saying would you be happy with your daughter sharing a room with a 16 year old male. Was pretty obvious what you were implying tbh

It wasn't in "retaliation" at all. The poster's question just reminded me of the fact that some parents certainly do have a problem with DD sharing a room with their children. Therefore I asked the question. It was not obvious why I was asking the question because if it was you wouldn't have got my reason for asking wrong would you?

I love how you have decided I am the bigot, when you have clearly been lesbophobic on this thread

There was nothing "lesbophobic" about the question ffs. You just made an ignorant assumption about why I asked the question.

I'm going to have to duck out f this now. I hope another perspective has been in some way useful.

For those of you that have not been rude, misgendered me, or used some other microaggression, thank you for engaging.

"I'm going to have to duck out f this now. I hope another perspective has been in some way useful."

FFS, do you think we've never heard the MIT perspective before? We hear nothing else but your wants and needs.

Interesting how many TIMs come on here to give "another perspective" as if their perspective wasn't blasted at us from the Guardian and pretty much every where else. Just like men do. Funny that.

Few come on here to listen to women's perspective.

Well, it was certainly a revealing exchange. Just possibly not in the way it was intended to be...

shotsfired thanks for that explanation. I’m genuinely going to save that and keep it, what an excellent explanation, much clearer than I am able to articulate myself.

Amy, I'm so sorry your honest attempt to engage and give another perspective has met with such insulting hostility. You have my respect. You are a woman, not only that but the kind of woman I'd enjoy spending an hour with over a cup of coffee. Sometimes I'm ashamed and this is one of them.

You are a woman

What is your definition of woman?

@Dungeondragon15 doesn't actually give a shit about trans people's safety and well being as she demonstrated quite nicely in her post at 10:13:34.

Amy, I'm so sorry your honest attempt to engage and give another perspective has met with such insulting hostility. You have my respect. You are a woman, not only that but the kind of woman I'd enjoy spending an hour with over a cup of coffee. Sometimes I'm ashamed and this is one of them.

This.

So what working definition do we have which allows you to continue to use the women's toilets, as you have done, but keeps out the chap a few posts ago with the baseball bat over his shoulder? How do we achieve that on a legal level?

Well, what we have now works perfectly fine. There is no need to make laws on it all given transsexual women already use female areas. The proposed changes will simply allow any male to use the areas. We have a pretty good 'system' at the moment that allows transitioned people to use the areas they feel are right, and keeps blokes out. Yes, a sign on a door would not stop a determined predator, but currently, if a shady looking guy is hanging around in the ladies, complaints can be made. With self-ID, the guy hanging about is the same as a woman hanging about, so nothing could be done.

There was nothing "lesbophobic" about the question ffs. You just made an ignorant assumption about why I asked the question.

Of course. Lesbian people just happened to pop into your head when a question was asked about female people sharing rooms with male ones. Just totally random. Not lesbophobic and equating a lesbian with a male at all.

The proposed changes will simply allow any male to use the areas

And this will be terrible for transsexual women who have used female spaces for years.

Under self ID there is nothing stopping a violent man self IDing as a woman and assaulting transwomen in female spaces instead.

Why do people not get this?

Also I know you have gone now amy, but thanks for your posts. You seem to echo what near all other transsexual posters say, with concerns about self-ID.

I really do think there needs to be a distinction made between 'transgender' and transsexual. I feel the new MRA types are making progress simply becaue people mistakenly assume that transgender is the same as transsexual. Where you mentioned being different from transvestites and drag queens, of course you are. However the label 'transgender' covers transsexuals, drag queens, transvestites, GNC people, and a bunch more groups that really are unrelated. I think with most people, it is NOT transsexual people that they wish to keep out of female areas. It is the likes of transvestites, 'gender queer' men (feel like a woman one day then a man the next) and autogynephiliacs. But, the major trans organisations appear to have lumped all of these together, so now, if 'we' agree to support transsexual people*, we have to accept the other groups as women too. And not many are willing to do that. As they are not women.

I personally think transwomen are transwomen. Different than women, but not lesser. Just..different, so saying they are actually women is false. Its also erasing a large part of who they are, to deny the 'trans' part. In a way, its actually transphobic to deny that trans people are trans people, as its as if trans is something to be ashamed of and something that should be hidden away.

*I couldn't think of a better way to word that. Obviously most people support transsexual people anyway.

Amy, I was going to advise you to bow out of this thread, as you'll be damned if you and damned if you don't, but I see you've already left. Like BlueLady I too am embarrassed by some of the completely unneccessary and undeserved utter fucking rudeness you've encountered on here. These people definitely don't speak for me. (Save your comebacks you lot, btw; you're just trotting the same old same old over and over again. )

Anyway, thanks for sharing your personal perspective, Amy. All the best to you from me.