To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

[Lilyyulelog]

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

I agree with flash.

If an archaeologist found remains in a thousand years, would the remains be male or female? I wondered this when watching CBB because they were so adamant they were a woman same as female born women.

@Alessandrocopper

Sex or gender and whose remains? I don't think you've understood the argument.

If an archaeologist found remains in a thousand years, how would they assess IQ and an aptitude for particle physics?

I tell you something, as soon as someone disagrees with you, you'll be happy enough to call them a man irrespective of their actual gender. So you do believe in male characteristics that have nothing to do with physical form. Goes the same for female. What does it matter to you if calling themselves female makes someone happy?

What does it matter if people call themselves fish or birds or horses even? Yes, it might make them happy to change what they are, and say they are something else, but it isn't the truth is it? It's all biological, and it's in the cells just like how different animals have different cells to humans. No matter what I say or how I dress, I am still human, not a fish nor bird.

And so from my point of view, transwomen are men, not women, and they aren't transitioning to become women either. It is biological and they are still men.

I tell you something, as soon as someone disagrees with you, you'll be happy enough to call them a man irrespective of their actual gender. So you do believe in male characteristics that have nothing to do with physical form. Goes the same for female. What does it matter to you if calling themselves female makes someone happy?

It doesn't matter to me.Until they expect me to play along or expect to shower next to my five year old daughter. It matters to these women though
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee.

I challenge anyone to read that thread and argue that these trans women are actually women, or that they have a female brain.

Men don't have different hair.

There are some posters on this forum who are obsessive about this issue - but oddly they never seem to have ishoos with female transitioning to male.

It's a really nasty undercurrent on MN surrounding this and MN Towers should stamp out these phobic posters once and for all. There is no place in decent society for prejudiced bigots.

Women are bigots for not wanting any man who says he's a woman in the changing rooms? They should just believe him and take their clothes off? Do you fancy sharing a changing room with any of the porn sick fetishists from that thread?

Nobody is concerned about trans men, because they are women. It's not possible to change sex.

"What does it matter to you if calling themselves female makes someone happy?"

I would have no problem making people happy if their road to happiness didn't shit on girls and women everywhere.

Saying "Any bloke who says he feels like a woman is a woman" means that they can give gynecological examinations to raped women, interned with women in prisons, compete against women in sports and even beat women to a pulp in boxing events. They get to undress in the female communal changing rooms, alongside preteen girls.

You can't object to any of it because then you are a "bigot".

It gets worse. They then try to stop women from discussing and fighting against women's issues such as FGM, because that "excludes" them and makes us (again, you guessed it) "bigots".

Do you see now why we can't just be nice and say "Oh OK then, John. We'll call you female because that makes you happy"?

Dons hard hat apologies this got long.

I believe, similar to CSI, that there are innate personality differences between men and women, due to our brains and biology. This is true of most species in the animal kingdom,so why shouldn't it be true for us?

No, I don't think women are to be consigned to the kitchen. A kitchen is not biological. Might women be more generally inclined to be homemakers? Maybe yes. Women in general are better able to nurture and care for children, prefer a tidy home, and communicate. Does that mean every woman enjoys it? No. Does it mean women who don't enjoy these things are trans? No. But, IMHO, it does mean that there are certain personality traits that women are generally more likely to have.
I believe this due to reading on the subject (I recommend 'why men don't listen and women don't read maps' - meta analyses of neurological studies of men and women) and general observation.

Being a cis woman (I don't believe the term is offensive) , I don't have any disconnect between my sex and my gender, which I believe is a combination of societal influences, those personality traits, and neurological connections telling me I am female. Therefore, however difficult it is for me to comprehend, I don't believe I can dictate how another person feels. I have many friends who are trans/gender fluid at all sorts of stages of transition. They are genuinely feeling something which I cannot.

So in basic, I believe that womanhood can be a 'feeling', though it is obviously more complicated than that. I think we should tread very cautiously so that adolescents don't transition when they may be getting gender and sexual orientation confused. I think we should remember that radical TRAs are the minority, though they are the loudest, and that we should all be aiming for the same thing, which is inclusion and respect. I don't yet know how to marry (cis) women's rights and safety fully with trans* women's rights and safety. But one of the first steps I believe, is to realise their feelings are largely valid and that they do not mean any harm.

Only on mumsnet do people get so worked up about "Trans Women " thread after thread back in the real world it really isn't a thing

It's a really nasty undercurrent on MN surrounding this and MN Towers should stamp out these phobic posters once and for all. There is no place in decent society for prejudiced bigots.

If it is wrong to point out that protecting women and girls is a priority then I don't want to be right.

terfisaslur.com/ for links to people that you might want to follow on twitter, where you might feel more comfortable no-debating the issue with.

Why's everyone so obsessed with trans women ??

Trans men exist too yet seem to be largely left alone thank goodness..........despite the fact there seems to be 1001 stories of a few shonky ones pretending to be entirely male and having sex with unwitting women. 🤔

Might women be more generally inclined to be homemakers? Maybe yes. Women in general are better able to nurture and care for children, prefer a tidy home, and communicate. Does that mean every woman enjoys it? No. Does it mean women who don't enjoy these things are trans? No. But, IMHO, it does mean that there are certain personality traits that women are generally more likely to have.

As a messy engineer, this is totally a misunderstanding of cause and effect. BECAUSE women have the babies and live in a patriarchal society they are CONDITIONED from birth to be all these things. Girls that move out of this structure are called 'tomboys' and 'geeks' and are pressured into conforming.

Being a cis woman (I don't believe the term is offensive)

It IS offensive. It is designed to be offensive. It is designed to keep you in your non-proper-woman box.

I don't have any disconnect between my sex and my gender, which I believe is a combination of societal influences, those personality traits, and neurological connections telling me I am female. Therefore, however difficult it is for me to comprehend, I don't believe I can dictate how another person feels. I have many friends who are trans/gender fluid at all sorts of stages of transition. They are genuinely feeling something which I cannot.

Good for you. How do you know they genuinely feel something which you cannot? If they are feeling something that is not 'normal' surely that is a mental health issue, not a 'change society to believe blue is red' issue?

So in basic, I believe that womanhood can be a 'feeling', though it is obviously more complicated than that.

No, womanhood stems from the biological FACTS that women bear the children, have the periods, are at risk of rape and attack from birth, risk losing their jobs, risk being paid less even though they have no intentions of having children, are are disadvantaged from the moment they are born, just because they are female. It is not a feeling.

If it's not "a thing" in the real world, perhaps it should be. As a lifelong feminist I don't want men in female spaces, regardless of whether they think they're women. This is just men finding another way of trampling all over women's rights.

I don't want a male gynaecologist, whether or not he's wearing lipstick. I don't want men in the same changing room and I don't want men on all women shortlists just because they say they're a woman. They can all just fuck off.

I’ve always thought the idea that male female differences stop at the neck,and that men and women are identical from the neck up, a bit daft. The brain is part of the body. It is affected by the body’s biochemistry, as much as the ovaries or testicles..

You're in the minority though. Most of us don't care. We don't fear men and screw up our faces at the 'erosion of womanhood' nonsense.

Happily, I'd say we're not in the minority. Of all the females I know, only one of them is happy to accept the 'men are women if they say they are women' line. The rest of them are absolutely furious.