Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 17:33

I hope I'm wrong but I suspect Dungeondragon15 is either

A. A man
B. A trans woman
C. A TRA

Due to this, I won't be engaging with them any more. The arguments presented are all the ones seen on Twitter day-in day-out.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 17:38

Intersex people should not be used to prove that men can MAGICALLY CHANGE INTO WOMEN.

Especially as everyone who brings them into these discussions don't actually seem to blood understand what being intersex means.

Case in point, @Dungeondragon15, who seems to be under the impression that intersex people are a third sex or some kind of in between sex.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 17:38

Blood? Meant bloody, obviously Hmm.

HairyBallTheorem · 23/02/2018 17:40

Gender as it has been traditionally understood by social scientists (sociologists, feminists, anthropologists) is a social construct. But importantly, even understood as a social construct, gender is not something you yourself can change at a whim. It is a system of stereotyped behaviours, dress codes, occupations etc. externally imposed on you by society at large.

I can't identify my way out of unequal pay, I can only fight it through the courts (which I have had to do in the past). A girl faced with FGM or forced marriage or a woman faced with forced pregnancy/abortion (depending on which sort of repressive culture she's in) cannot identify her way out of these forms of oppression.

(Gender in the sense understood by TRAs is something different again - an internal sense of one's femininity/masculinity akin to a soul or some such religious concept - they've taken an external political/cultural system of oppression and turned it into an internal thing - "reified it" as philosophers would say. This sense of the word "gender" is hogwash, along with souls, transmigration of souls, the afterlife, etc. etc. If people want to embrace it as a private belief system that's fine, but I'm under no obligation to subscribe to that belief system myself, or to chant the catechism of "transwomen are women". I'd sooner recite the Nicene Creed - it has a certain poetic majesty at least.)

Xulishesthepilot · 23/02/2018 17:49

Lol Daisy, it was predicted by another poster on only the second page of this thread that that was the road you'd go down...

I tell you something, as soon as someone disagrees with you, you'll be happy enough to call them a man irrespective of their actual gender.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 23/02/2018 17:49

For example...

Sex: Male
Gender: says is 'woman'
Gender: behaviour screams 'definitely a bloke and a violent one at that'.

Men just cannot help behaving like aggressive men, whether they are in a twin set and pearls or not.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 17:53

*DaisyDrip" you are completely wrong. I am neither a man, transwoman or TRA. I don't normally engage on mumsnet on this and I certainly have never been on twitter (for this or anything else). Interesting that you have heard the arguments in day in and out though. This suggests that many people disagree with you and also that you are very invested in the issue yourself which seems odd to me. You'll just have to accept that not all women agree with you although I doubt many can be bothered to argue about it. Times are changing and I don't think there is much you can do about it as the younger generation are much less bigoted (thankfully).

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 17:54

I tell you something, as soon as someone disagrees with you, you'll be happy enough to call them a man irrespective of their actual gender.

lol

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 17:55

Xulishesthepilot Your viewpoint is different to mine, I have not suggested anything of you. Mothers (usually) think about the safety of their children. Dragon, by putting a trans child above their own suggests (to me at least) they are not the mum.

I have apologised in the past if I've got things wrong and would do so again. I have no problem accepting I'm a fallible human, however, in this instance I stand by what I've said.

Incidentally, both here and on Twitter I've never said anything like this before but my spidey senses are rattling like church bells here.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 17:56

@Dungeondragon15

Why is a woman a bigot if she doesn't want to get changed in front of this person in the female changing rooms?

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 17:57

Or this person, @Dungeondragon15?

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 17:58

Dungeondragon15 I'll choose to stick to my own opinion on this one thanks. I read twitter but post maybe once or twice a week. Yes, times are changing, thank goodness for that, if they didn't we would all have mangles and posse stick. I will not sit back quietly and allow times to change to the point my grandchildren are placed in danger. You may not mind that, I do!

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:00

Dragon, by putting a trans child above their own suggests (to me at least) they are not the mum.

PMSL. I wouldn't be putting the trans child above my own if I genuinely didn't consider them to be a "danger" to my child!

Incidentally, both here and on Twitter I've never said anything like this before but my spidey senses are rattling like church bells here.

Which doesn't say much for your "spidey senses"

geekymommy · 23/02/2018 18:00

I don't want to get undressed in front of ANYBODY in a changing room. I want changing rooms and locker rooms with private areas for getting undressed. Many trans people want this, too.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:01

Why is a woman a bigot if she doesn't want to get changed in front of this person in the female changing rooms?

As I have said (about 100 times) cubicles are required.

DaisyDrip · 23/02/2018 18:02

Dungeondragon15 My spidey senses are just fine thanks. Anyway, I'm done with you, you're not all you seem. (IMO).

GrockleBocs · 23/02/2018 18:03

Just one thing Dungeon, you said I wouldn't see them as a boy if they were transitioning. What if they weren't transitioning? Just a standard 15 year old boy who says he's a girl and has no intention of mutilating their body to get transphobes to accept them? Still OK? Still seeing a girl?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 18:04

I don't want to get undressed in front of ANYBODY in a changing room. I want changing rooms and locker rooms with private areas for getting undressed

That's fair enough but the fact remains that there are still a lot of places with communal changing rooms.

The leisure centre I go to has single sex communal changing rooms so if someone like Danielle here were to walk into the female changing rooms, why would I be a bigot for objecting to 'her' being there?

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 18:06

What about transsexuals and children with gender dysphoria who are suffering because of this new wave of transactivism @Dungeondragon15? Do you give a shit about them?

There have been heartbreaking accounts on here from trans people and parents of trans children who have spoken about their experiences of being unable to access counselling because counselling is now considered transphobic and akin to gay conversion therapy. The result is vulnerable people being left without mental health support. Is that acceptable to you? Do you care about what these people are going through?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:07

My spidey senses are just fine thanks. Anyway, I'm done with you, you're not all you seem. (IMO).

Not if you think that all women agree with you and that anyone who disagrees is a man or transwomen. If you are a grandparent I would let your children worry about your grandchildren. Your opinion on transgender issues is fast becoming out of date...

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:09

There have been heartbreaking accounts on here from trans people and parents of trans children who have spoken about their experiences of being unable to access counselling because counselling is now considered transphobic and akin to gay conversion therapy. The result is vulnerable people being left without mental health support. Is that acceptable to you? Do you care about what these people are going through?

Of course they should be getting a lot of support. What they don't need are people telling them that a tran women can never be a women etc. Why don't you leave it to the children, there parents and the professionals to decide what support is required though. It's not your business.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:10

there their

XXkimchi · 23/02/2018 18:11

Biology is out of date now? What’s dated is this nonsense on lady brains etc

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 18:12

Why don't you leave it to the children, there parents and the professionals to decide what support is required though.

There is no support any more. That's the bloody point.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:15

There is no support any more. That's the bloody point.

Yes, there is support and while it may not be good enough, that is the business of the children and the parents, not yours.