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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
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amycollins · 24/02/2018 13:14

@BertrandRussell - I do think that trans people as a whole are lumped together and there is an assumption that every trans person wants the same thing.

I hear a lot of things that just make no sense to me, but are waved around as common sense statements that all correct thinking trans people should agree with. The reality is that the community is very fragmented.

For example:

  1. Self identification sounds great but in practice it will make a mockery out of the whole thing. Maybe there should just be an app to make it super convenient? Changing your gender is not a lightly taken decision and shouldn't be trivialized. The current process requires doctors reports, a statutory declaration and a chain of evidence that you have lived to establish beyond reasonable doubt that your claim is genuine. Lower this burden of proof and it will be bad for trans people. There are some who say that it should be de-medicalized. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. To me being trans is a medical issue. I felt like some part of me was set wrong and it had to be corrected. Doctors were involved, so having a doctor verify my claim makes sense. There are others that say that being trans has nothing to do with medical changes, but that doesn't align with my internal experiences and I can't imagine what it would be like to be transgender without any desire to bring ones body into alignment with the norms for that gender... That's not to say I'm right, but I just can't relate. I do not speak for 100% of trans people on this.
  1. On the surgery thing... Many trans people get very angry that doctors make them live 'full time' for a year before signing them off. It does feel a little patronizing. And I knew I wanted it from the first time I found out such a thing was possible.... but really... should I just be able to rock up at my doctors surgery and say "I want surgery on my genitals... don't ask me any questions, I won't change my mind... just book me in". Like the gender recognition process, it's all a bit broken but there has to be some kind of reasonable way of a medical professional assessing a long term need for permanent, life changing surgery. I found the years wait to be eminently sensible and it didn't change my mind, but somehow I understood better why I wanted it. I do not speak for 100% of trans people on this.
  1. There is an assumption that because I'm trans, I want every form to include 34 gender options and have the government change materials about cervical cancer to be changed because I don't have a cervix and could be offended. Anyone producing a leaflet on cervical cancer should focus on getting people to be aware of the dangers and detection. I'd want my doctor to be aware that I am at higher risk of breast cancer, but I'm not expecting every leaflet about breast cancer to have a section focussed on my specific situation. I have a responsibility to understand my body and needs. I'm asking society to be inclusive of me, but I have to be cognizant of the fact that our society is a shared space. We have to be pragmatic. I do not speak for 100% of trans people on this.
  1. There's an assumption that every trans person is outraged at the lack of non-binary recognition in our country. I know a number of people that are non-binary and have grievances with the status quo, but it's a really different fight to that of binary trans people. Asking for the nature of gender to be changed so significantly is something that needs to be debated before a decision is made. It shouldn't just be rubber stamped through. The erosion of gender as a concept will have consequences for all women (including me) and there will be negative unintended consequences on the push for gender pay equality, sexism and other challenges that we face. I am not saying that nothing should be done, I'm just saying that the solution isn't as simple as start using gender neutral language and slapping an M/F/X gender option on passports. It's a nuanced issue that is actually quite different in terms of implication than the question of binary trans rights. I do not speak for 100% of trans people on this.

I do feel that saying things such as the above will open me to attacks from within for being a bigot. But to me screaming that there must be no constraints on all this just makes no sense.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 13:21

@shotsfired - Yes I did read your comment. I agree with you on the differences point and some of the dangers of the question of a zero friction of the gender recognition process.

I'm less aligned with you on the erasure of lesbian and gay people. I think the opposite is true. When trans people come out, very often everyone puts a lot of pressure on them with phrases like "you're probably just gay". And I'm not sure the two of three trans kids I know align with your comments.

But yes - we have some common ground :-) And I think it's the ability to agree on what we agree on and calmly debate the difference is what we need.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 13:26

@bertrandrussel I wonder whether there is mileage in highlighting a distinction between transgender and transsexual. Amy, please feel free to ignore me, but can I ask whether you think of yourself as transsexual or transgender?

I grew up secretly thinking I was transexual ever since I heard it. Years later (still in the closet), I used the expression and a colleague kurtly told me "you can't say that anymore, I am friends with lots of trans people and you can't say that". In my head was like: "ok - great - but I am one... so WTF". This is now the norm... Transexual is considered a slur and overly focussed on the medical side of things.

I have recently started to reclaim the word and use it. It's interesting to see people's reactions.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 13:53

@bigdeskbob: I'm told time and time again that there are hundred, thousands of transexual males who just want to get on with their lives, they would never enter women's spaces or call themselves female. These people are horrified at TRA and don't want to stop debate. Where are these people? Is Amy really one?

Ignoring your gybe about "transxual male", yes I mostly do just want to get on with my life.

Would I enter a women's space? Yep. As I said above, I use women's loos, get changed at the gym in women's changing rooms, am part of a womens running club. Do I call myself female? Depends on the situation. I have F on my drivers license and passport. My medical records say female. My doctor and I talk about women's health issues that are relevant (vaginal health, breast cancer risks, hormones). I have a female birth certificate. If I fill out a form, I tick female.

I don't really relate to the transexual male label you used. For a number of reasons:

  1. I have a vagina, breast tissue, no male gonads, and female hormonal levels.
  2. trans male is most often used to describe people that were assigned women at birth and transition to male - also known as FTM or F2M.

You may want to say "but what about XY....you can never change that". I almost certainly do have XY chromosomes. I've never checked... But it's highly likely I do. I suppose it's unlikely that I'd ever be able to change it. Even if I could I don't really know how useful it would be or whether I'd bother. I think it's interesting... the gap makes my sex different to that of other women is narrowing. It used to be the case that a trans person could not change their body. Then in the 60s the first SRS ops happened and HRT was invented. Later Voice Feminisation surgery and Facial Feminization surgery arose to correct the damage caused by testosterone. We're just on the cusp of uterus transplants and potential pregnancy. The genetic argument is often wielded as a way of saying "you'll never truly be female"... but what if that changes? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that transition may involve rewriting those genes in the future?

At the end of the day, I know I am not biologically the same. But I've made changes that has made me close enough that living my life is much easier.

This isn't about me invading women's spaces. I use womens spaces, because I need to use them - that's the life I live. I am really very sorry if you find that challenging, but the reality is I'm going to keep doing it.

ShotsFired · 24/02/2018 14:04

@amycollins But yes - we have some common ground :-) And I think it's the ability to agree on what we agree on and calmly debate the difference is what we need.

Flowers agree 100% and hope you will stick round and continue to discuss as pleasantly and honestly as you have begun.

I'm less aligned with you on the erasure of lesbian and gay people. I think the opposite is true. When trans people come out, very often everyone puts a lot of pressure on them with phrases like "you're probably just gay". And I'm not sure the two of three trans kids I know align with your comments.

That's a very interesting perspective that I haven't seen before. I am not lesbian so base my thinking on what the gay and lesbian MNers and external sources have to say on this. As a working theory (so far, I am open minded to new evidence) I wonder if your experiences are because you are an honest-to-god transsexual with similarly honest- to-god lesbian and gay friends just living your lives, rather than the activist type being discussed?

This post was a hugely informative and articulate write up, and I'd be interested in your views: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

BigDeskBob · 24/02/2018 14:05

'vagina', 'female', 'women', 'girl'. They can mean whatever a man what's them to mean.

I'm still waiting to hear from a MiT who put women and girls first...

DaisyDrip · 24/02/2018 14:11

Whoa Amy Sorry, but when a trans woman starts talking about uterine transplants I'm gone.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 14:21

@bigdeskbob -'vagina', 'female', 'women', 'girl'. They can mean whatever a man what's them to mean.

When I referred to having a vagina - It's not just a word I made up - it's actually what my surgeon, my GP and my gyno call it. I think they're reasonably well qualified to apply the label.

With regards to female - the United Kingdom government issued me with that documentation. The law of my country has literally labelled me that.

I suspect that we're unlikely to agree on much, but that's ok. We can simply agree to disagree. Fortunately, my position is aligned with the law of our land. I shall continue to live my life. My gentle suggestion is that you find a way of getting used to the fact that trans people have been using gendered spaces for decades and this is unlikely to change.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 14:29

@DaisyDrip - It's not something I plan to do for the following reasons:

  1. I have two lovely children
  2. It'll be expensive
  3. It will be initially risky both for the mother and the baby

However I suspect that it's only a matter of time before it becomes a reality. I don't mean any positive or negative judgement in that.

I only brought it up in the previous post because many trans exclusionary people cite the absolute differences to create standards that a trans woman could never meet and I was pointing out that these differences may to all intents and purposes disappear over time.

Bluelady · 24/02/2018 14:42

Amy, I'm very moved by your thoughtful posts. Thank you for putting in the time and effort to share with us.

To me you are a woman and have travelled a long and difficult path to reach the resolution that's right for you. You're not one of the people who worry and upset me. It's people who self id and get shouty about women's fears - the ones you share - who upset me. As far as I'm concerned you and I are on the same page.

UnmitigatedBollocks · 24/02/2018 15:09

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TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 24/02/2018 15:12

Happily, I'd say we're not in the minority. Of all the females I know, only one of them is happy to accept the 'men are women if they say they are women' line. The rest of them are absolutely furious.

Yup, once people realise that this self-ID nonsense is NOT about actual transitioned transsexual people at all..and its actually about any man being able to declare himself a woman, they tend to disagree with it. As rational people who believe in biology and believe what they can see with their own eyes, should.

People who support it all generally think that its about the lovely transsexual person who lives next door to them, who goes about their life just trying to keep their head down. It boggles their minds when they find out that its not about these people at all and its about that shouty MRA incel type who lives down the road who hates women with a passion and thinks all women (including lesbians) should have sex with him as thats what women are there for. Or for the rapist who is currently in prison but is asking to be put in with the women because of a 'feeling' in his head.

Terfinater · 24/02/2018 15:40

haven't heard of a case of a trans person committing a crime against people in a restroom. If one has, I would speculate it is far below the background for the general population

transcrimeuk.com

genderidentitywatch.com/page/2/

So here we have another tim telling us that they access women's spaces, competes with women in a sport, and would expect to go to a womans prison. And that nobody has been attacked in a bathroom.Oh, and the real give away, women are referred to as hysterical for being concerned about safety.

Amy's concerns about safety are perfectly valid though.

HairyBallTheorem · 24/02/2018 15:51

Well, given that your surgeon and other HCPs are treating your gender dysphoria, it's not surprising that they would refer to your neo-vagina as a vagina - it is their job and correct medical practice and good bedside manner to use words that will make you feel comfortable. That's the point of treatment.

But you speak of having two children, by which I take it you fathered two children prior to transition. So you must be pretty well acquainted with a female vagina and what it can do. It is not a mere hole excavated in your perineum to accommodate an inverted penis. It is a muscular structure, capable of contracting during orgasm, with the internal lobes of the clitoris wrapped around the sides of its opening. It connects, via the cervix, to the uterus, and is the passage through which a baby can be birthed. It is self lubricating, remarkably elastic and just an all-round extraordinary organ.

I sincerely hope that the operation was wholly successful and it has made you more at peace with yourself and more comfortable in your own body. But what you have is simply not the same as what I was born with.

I suspect we do have some common ground. I have known a number of transwomen over the years - all of them very nice, thoughtful people just getting on with their life. However, that doesn't mean I'm happy to support self ID - because of the many reasons outlined on this thread, including yours.

Another area of overlap might be where you talk about a distinction between yourself and drag queens and fetishistic cross dressers - and I would totally agree with you that there is a huge problem there. However, one of the problems you and I both face is that campaigning organisations like Stonewall want to gloss over this important difference and include fetishistic cross dressers - exactly the sort of people I don't want in the changing room with me - under the trans umbrella. So the question is, how do we draw up the legislation to exclude them, while not excluding you?

However, we do have some points of difference., for instance prisons (an issue which I hope neither of us will experience personally), where I feel there have to be circumstances where biology matters. A post-op transwoman imprisoned for tax evasion - I can see why people would make a case for her to be sent to a women's prison (though I'd favour some sort of third space). However, it's estimated that of the 100 or so prisoners currently in the male estate presenting as women, slightly over 50% are sex offenders. (The stats were collected partly using court records, and partly using the fact that there are some male prisons which only house sex offenders). It'll be a cold day in hell before I support a biologically male sex offender being moved to a women's prison.

Can I just point out that a lot of us find the entirely spurious analogy of "it's just like blacks in segregation America" deeply offensive, because you are addressing women, who are the oppressed class, not the oppressors. We need sex-segregated spaces not to set ourselves apart, but to protect ourselves. It isn't the same at all (and a number of black commentators made this point in the aftermath of the Rachel Dolzeal case, when endless column inches in the press were devoted to Dolzeal/Jenner: compare and contrast). I've heard the analogy here re. transwomen of asking whether they're entering women's spaces as a refugee from toxic masculinity or a colonist - you have to be very careful that we don't read you as a colonist, because, like it or not, you grew up with male privilege, and we can spot the lingering residue of that a mile off.

ferntwist · 24/02/2018 16:47

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amycollins · 24/02/2018 17:01

@HairyBallTheorem

Thanks for an interesting post.

Yes - clearly there are differences between my anatomy and yours. I don't believe I dispute that. Though probably not as many as you suggest - surgical techniques vary widely and have come on a long way. I'm not going to get into a debate about what degree of similarity there is - it's close enough such that, recently, a nurse that didn't know my background doing a swab didn't realise I was trans. But yes there are differences. It's close enough to allow me to be happier. I think at some point in the future, the process will be improved for future transitioners that the differences become negligible. I'm happy with where I ended up though. If I get wrapped up in the limits of current medical technology then it's not going to be hugely healthy.

On the women's prison front - Likewise - Hopefully it'll be a moot point for both of us. I found your response to be nuanced and considered. Like you, I'd have concerns about being housed in any facility with a sex offender. I'd be interested in the equivalent stats for women's prisons to accompany the mens prisons ones that you cite - I.e. of the trans women housed in women's prisons, how many are for violent or sexual offenses. I don't have all the answers - Hopefully though non-shouty people will keep calmly debating it. In the mean time, one can only hope that judges will make sane choices about the appropriate facility for appropriate cases.

On the self cert thing - We obviously agree, so won't dwell.

Re the "how do we legislate" question... I don't know. My big worry that because the emotions on both sides are running so hot and people are screaming absolutes that a sensible debate is impossible.

Unfortunately we'll have to agree to disagree on the segregated bathroom analogy. I am really sorry if you find it offensive, though I do not retract it. I hope you can accept that position, given that I've personally found a lot of the posts here similarly offensive and reacted to them with reasonable good grace?
You mention Rachael Dolzeal - who was clearly wrong in likening gender to race as a vehicle to claim a racial status. I'm not doing that. You say that my analogy is not reasonable because women are an oppressed class. Women obviously, absolutely are oppressed and it's one of the big issues in our society that (like it or not) affects me too. However, when zooming in on the trans bathroom debate, actual trans women who are just trying to live their lives are the oppressed class, in this case being oppressed by an oppressed class. Like I said.... women clearly have less privilege than men, our society is such that trans women have less than other women. That may be an uncomfortable thing to hear, but it's true. Trans women already use women's facilities. They have done for a long long long time. We also have a reasonable degree of legal protection. My actual point was though: I suspect that any woman that takes issue with me peeing in the next cubicle, as with the case of the previous bathroom / water fountain debates, they'll simply have to accept that this is the law of our land and learn to let it go. I'm not saying this to try to upset you or provoke a fight, just to say that trying to wish or shout us into not peeing next to you will just get you frustrated.

Thanks again for a considered message.

Amy

BigDeskBob · 24/02/2018 17:06

Wow

ferntwist · 24/02/2018 17:08

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ferntwist · 24/02/2018 17:13

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TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 24/02/2018 17:25

Money is power. There are hugely rich transwomen like Jennifer Pritzker (born James Nicholas Pritzker) ploughing millions of dollars into the transgender medical industry and into academic institutions in the U.S. Women don’t stand a chance.

Correct. If you follow the money, this is where it leads.

ferntwist · 24/02/2018 17:27

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Xulishesthepilot · 24/02/2018 18:13

transcrimeuk.com/

The very fact that this website even exists is something I find deeply, deeply troubling.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 18:22

Maybe I can ask a question.

I work in a place where I receive civility from my colleagues and people I encounter in the industry. I have never been misgendered by a colleague - I'd be frankly astonished if I encountered any of the slurs or consciously provocative labels that have been used on this thread.

For those of you that find it difficult to acknowledge me as a woman, I wonder, If we were to find ourselves working in the same company, would you be able to be civil and use 'she' pronouns and refer to me as a woman? Or would you find that too challenging and insist on referring to me as he, trans identifying male or any of the other slurs that are used here?

MaisyPops · 24/02/2018 18:28

amy As a transitioned transwoman I would use she and treat you like any other woman and would do the same for any transitioning person.
I think it's a lot of strength to go through the process and my personal feelings about gender don't affect my ability to treat you with respect.

If i had to work with a TRA 'i self ID as a woman now let me wear dresses and be a lady' with all of the crap that comes with it then I would probably have as little to do with them as I professionally could get away with becauae people like that are dangerous and malicious and would happily try ti trash people's career for saying or thinking the wrong things and i know I'd struggle not to roll my eyes of have a 'this person is a fucking idiot' expression on each time they started.

That might make me sound awful, but that's my honest feelings.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 24/02/2018 18:31

For those of you that find it difficult to acknowledge me as a woman, I wonder, If we were to find ourselves working in the same company, would you be able to be civil and use 'she' pronouns and refer to me as a woman? Or would you find that too challenging and insist on referring to me as he, trans identifying male or any of the other slurs that are used here?

I would avoid using any pronouns to be honest. I'd use your name. I have worked with trans identifying males before, pre-op. I just called them by their name then as well. It wasn't discussed as an issue, they used the ladies loo but were never inappropriate in their behaviour. They did turn up one day, on a day off, to look at a report, dressed as little bo peep in pink gingham, but as I am an adult I just said 'hi' and got on with my work.

It is not that i find it difficult to acknowledge you as a woman, but I do not believe that it is possible to become a woman if you were born a man. But I wouldn't want to disrespect you in a professional setting.

If you turned up with a baseball bat and DIE CIS SCUM on your arm, like the man in the photo, then we would have a problem wouldn't we? I am sure you are not like that in any way.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???
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