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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for someone to actually explain how trans women are women???

439 replies

Lilyyulelog · 22/02/2018 21:40

I genuinely would love a satisfactory explanation, one which gets to the point. Since becoming aware of the 'trans debate' I've yet to see one that makes any sense at all.

Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BaronessEllaSaturday · 23/02/2018 18:37

PMSL. I wouldn't be putting the trans child above my own if I genuinely didn't consider them to be a "danger" to my child!

You are assuming that the person sharing will be someone you know and trust however that doesn't have to be the case and that is the issue for me. Your child, my child could have to share with someone you would think a danger but you wouldn't necessarily be able to stop it. Children don't always get a choice of who they share with

JaneyEJones · 23/02/2018 18:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

newyearfabulousness · 23/02/2018 18:40

*Idon't want to get undressed in front of ANYBODY in a changing room. I want changing rooms and locker rooms with private areas for getting undressed

That's fair enough but the fact remains that there are still a lot of places with communal changing rooms.

The leisure centre I go to has single sex communal changing rooms so if someone like Danielle here were to walk into the female changing rooms, why would I be a bigot for objecting to 'her' being there?*
Agreed

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:43

You are assuming that the person sharing will be someone you know and trust however that doesn't have to be the case and that is the issue for me. Your child, my child could have to share with someone you would think a danger but you wouldn't necessarily be able to stop it. Children don't always get a choice of who they share with

As said that I wouldn't mind if that child was my child's friend though so I am not just assuming I would know them. On any trips my children have gone on they have always chosen who they will share a room with and there are usually several to a room.

HairyBallTheorem · 23/02/2018 18:44

We've had a number of parents of trans children on here talking about how changes to mental health support having a bad effect - and they have directly linked this to "affirmation only" protocols.

It's telling that you think we shouldn't offer them support and help in their campaigns because it's none of our business, but you feel fine campaigning for trans rights even though you're not trans. Double standards?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 18:52

It's telling that you think we shouldn't offer them support and help in their campaigns because it's none of our business, but you feel fine campaigning for trans rights even though you're not trans. Double standards?

Do you think that transgender children or their parents will feel you are supportive? I somehow doubt that. You have your own agenda.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 19:00

Do you think that transgender children or their parents will feel you are supportive?

The ones who post here do.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 19:01

that is the business of the children and the parents, not yours.

So do you care about trans people or not?

HairyBallTheorem · 23/02/2018 19:02

Given that going through a transient period of dysphoria about one's body is very very common in puberty, a lot of parents want to pursue a course of waiting to see how their children feel as they grow older and more mature. Those parents do feel supported by people prepared to listen to them rather than simply saying "if your child says they're trans then they are."

Does the 2000% increase in teenage girls deciding, often pretty much out of the blue, that they are trans not worry you at all? Especially when there's evidence that they may have autism and be struggling with society's gender roles not because they are trans but because they are are autistic? Or that they may be girls trying to opt out of the hypersexualised society we live in? Or that they may be girls who've been subjected to sexual abuse and are using transient as a coping mechanism? Are you really happy to take the explosion in sudden onset gender dysphoria in girls at face value?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 19:05

Really? None have posted on this thread. Is that supportive of parents who are totally against their children being transgender?

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2018 19:10

Does the 2000% increase in teenage girls deciding, often pretty much out of the blue, that they are trans not worry you at all?

No it doesn't worry me because I think it is between, them, their parents and the professionals who treat them. It is not my business and no way would I have the arrogance to tell them that I know better than they do about what must be a very difficult decision.

UnmitigatedBollocks · 23/02/2018 19:14

I think MN should do a webchat with India Willoughby.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 19:15

None have posted on this thread

How do you know?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 23/02/2018 19:24

It is not my business and no way would I have the arrogance to tell them that I know better than they do about what must be a very difficult decision.

I think you're missing the point somewhat @Dungeondragon15. Their parents are desperate for their children to have counselling but it is no longer available.

It is not a case of their parents deciding that mental health support is not appropriate for their child, in fact it is the opposite. They want their child to have mental health support but it is being denied to them because it is now being viewed akin to gay conversion therapy.

Dungeondragon15 · 24/02/2018 10:13

I think you're missing the point somewhat @Dungeondragon15. Their parents are desperate for their children to have counselling but it is no longer available.

I think that you are missing the point that it is none of your business unless you are a child, parent or professional in the field.

It is not a case of their parents deciding that mental health support is not appropriate for their child, in fact it is the opposite. They want their child to have mental health support but it is being denied to them because it is now being viewed akin to gay conversion therapy.

I didn't mean that they didn't need mental health support or other support from trained unbiased professionals. I said that they didn't need my opinions or your opinions unless you are a professional in the field, of course (my guess is hot). They need to rest of society to not stick their noses in and accept them for what they choose to be.

amycollins · 24/02/2018 11:52

I’m a trans woman.

I suspect, based on the rest of this thread that will get me some contemptuous responses.

One of the big problems we have here is that there are two sides who are shouting and not listening. Both slides have names for the other… “trans identifying men”, “tranny”, “TERF”, “Biggot”. Both sides are making very absolute statements: “Transwomen are men. You can't change facts” and “trans rights are NOT a debate”. The reality is this is a debate and it's not a very effective one right now. We need to debate this like calm, kind and rational people, because this isn’t going away and we all need to live with each other.

I’m going to make a few observations in response to some of what I perceive to be misconceptions above. All of the following is the perspective of a medically & socially transitioned, binary trans woman. I have not factored the opinions of non-binary people or any other section of the trans community as it’s simply not within my experience or expertise to offer an opinion.

1. I believe that despite the visceral barrage of anti trans comments on this thread, this is a minority view point and that this is simply an angry echo chamber. Since transitioning, I have received acceptance, kindness and respect. Other Women have been universally welcoming. Maybe one could argue everyone is just humouring me or too polite to say the things to my face that have been said on this board... but I really don't think so. I believe that my relationships with my friends and colleagues are genuine. I may know people that secretly harbour this viewpoint, but I am convinced that is a rare exception. People are kinder than this thread suggests.

2. Many of the angry, inflammatory statements in this thread lead me to believe that the posters have not knowingly met many (or perhaps any) actual trans people. There is a difference between a drag queen or a transvestite and someone such as myself that has changed many aspects of their body, socially transitioned, changed their documents, lives and works as a woman. I do not mean that as any judgement of any other group or person, but as some on this thread have pointed out it’s not always helpful to lump everyone together. Contrary to statements above about all “Transwomen“, my life is not a performance, nor fetish for makeup and lacy underwear. I do wear makeup, but many women do. I wear underwear, but it does not excite me. I wear women's underwear because it fits my anatomy best. If I don’t wear a bra, certain activities such as going up and down stairs or running is uncomfortable. My life does not revolving around some fantasy. It revolves around my children and partner and my work and making ends meet. My life is for the most part very ordinary.

3. I have changed many aspects of my body. I have done this through hormones, surgery, diet and exercise. I have not done this out of a sexual need to have a vagina. I have done it, because I have for most of my life had the overwhelming sense that “it was not supposed to be this way”. The medical community has not found any mainstream, medically recognized method of making this urge go away. The only known way to make people that feel as I have done is to change the body to match this sense. Please note - I’m not using the phrase “women’s brain” or anything like that. But I believe that somewhere inside me there is some switch that somewhere along the way got set in the wrong position. With each change, the feeling of wrongness has lessened. If it were a fetish, usually the stimulus leads to greater need and excitement around that fetish. For the trans people that I’ve met, quite the opposite is true: It has lead to a clamer self. I know that if you haven’t experienced it, the idea of taking such drastic steps to alter your seemingly healthy body sounds unrelatable and probably crazy. All I can say is it has made a life changing degree of difference to me.

4. I didn't choose this. I don't know why it's not obvious to those that make statements about trans people to the contrary. Being gay isn't a choice. Being lesbian isn't a choice. Being bi isn't a choice. Being trans isn't a choice. I tried really hard to ignore it for such a long time, but it just made me feel sad. And... yes... therapy didn't make it go away. I don't know what made me this way. There is some research that suggests that it's caused by some hormonal imbalance during gestation or androgen insensitivity. There are many other ideas.. My strong personal sense is that there is some root physical cause that medical science will one day understand. To some extent it doesn't matter - Whether we understand it or not - this is a thing that people experience. If you think "men" just decide to do this for some thrill or rush, you're just plain wrong. Nobody goes through all of this just for kicks - it's really hard and often physically painful not to mention expensive.

5. I, like many trans people, use toilets that align with my gender. I cannot imagine using the men's loo. I do not think it would be safe. I am not a threat to other women, nor children. I walk in. Select a stall. Sit down. Wee. Leave the cubicle. Wash my hands. Maybe check my appearance and leave. I just want to pee. Trans people in public loos are far more afraid of you than you are of them. I haven't heard of a case of a trans person committing a crime against people in a restroom. If one has, I would speculate it is far below the background for the general population.

6. The Gender Recognition Act gives me legal protection and grants me a number of rights such as a female birth certificate. This is the law of the land in which we live. Let me say that more clearly: The laws of this land - that as citizens we are all required to live by recognises me as a woman.

7. If for whatever reason, I am convicted of a crime, I have reasonable confidence that because of my body and because of my legal status I would be sent to a women's prison. I do not see this as an opportunity; I don't want to go to prison.Again, like the toilet debate, I am zero threat to any other woman. If I were to find myself in that situation, my suspicion is that I would be at greater risk than the average inmate in that women's prison. If I were for whatever reason to be sent to a men's prison I am reasonably certain that my risk would increase by an order of magnitude; I would be beaten, raped or murdered. The state has a responsibility to incarcerate someone under their supervision in a way that ensures their safety.

8. Not all trans people are trans activists or “social justice warriors”. Most trans people simply want to get on with our lives.
Should I be allowed to compete in the Women’s Show Jumping championships? No. Clearly not. I can’t ride a horse. I appreciate that is glib, but my semi serious point is that it’s not an everyday problem. There has not been a trans woman taking a gold medal off Mary Keitany at the london marathon. There are so few of it’s not a problem. If it were to happen though… should it be allowed? Maybe. During the first year of HRT, I could feel my strength fading. It was remarkable. Years later I do not believe I have a significant advantage over any other woman in a sporting event. I am a member of a women’s running club and my gender history has not propelled me to the front of the leaderboards. Should a man be able to fill out a form, tick ‘woman’ and enter a women's event with all the advantages that testosterone allows? I don’t believe so. But I think there does become a point where any advantage that a trans woman may have had has long since disappeared. While this is a tiny tiny edge case, it’s not worth burning too many brain cycles on.

9. I use the women's changing room at the gym and pool. My suspicion is that most people notice nothing unusual about me - I look pretty much the same as all the other users of that facility. Like the restroom, I just want to get changed and get out. There are some comments above from hysterical women saying “where do I go if I don’t want to share a space with an XY person???”. Well firstly I’d say, you almost certainly wouldn’t notice I was there - and why would you? Surely you're not gawping at the other patrons, you're doing what the rest of us are doing... getting changed... right?

And even if you did become aware that I'm a little different... I’d like to point out there was a time that for arguments of purity white people didn't want to share facilities with black people. Society moved on and people that felt that way just had to get over themselves. The reality is I think you may be in the same boat.

However the issue is a bit more nuanced than that. For a loo, where there is privacy in the stalls, I have trouble understanding the issue. But in a communal space where people are getting changed, showering and being naked, I can understand an argument about feeling uncomfortable with someone that has not (yet) undertaken a medical transition. I think in practice though, people in that situation would be uncomfortable putting themselves in a communal situation anyway. Many early transitioners simply stop working out or doing activities that require them to use communal facilities because of the fear.

10. Regarding the self declaration of gender, which is core to this debate, I have some major worries. My first concern is one of robustness. The current system grants me the same rights of any other woman. It is illegal to discriminate against me on that basis.
My deed poll (which is a self certification name change) was not accepted by my bank. They wanted something countersigned by a lawyer. They were happy when I got a statutory declaration. As soon as you decrease the friction around a process like this, it decreases the weight of the outcome. If any process is recognised by filling out a form without scrutiny, that process does not carry the same weight that has been verified by professionals.. The same goes for the gender recognition process. If it is fill out a form and that's it, you’re a woman, the response will be “you’re not a real woman, you just filled out a form”. I want a substantial process that places a burden of proof upon me or any other person making this claim. A lot of people cite hypothetical scenarios of men abusing the system to gain access to some women's service of space. I think that if this happens it will be very rare and will most likely be someone proving a point. If we lower the friction, abuse becomes easier and that’s bad for all trans people. Contrary to being a liberation for trans people, a light weight process would erode trans rights. I certainly don’t speak for most trans people in this regard as I think most are pushing for a zero proof, zero friction system. I think we need to think very carefully about unintended consequences.

Amy

BertrandRussell · 24/02/2018 12:06

Amy-that is an amazing and honest post. Thank you . One of the things I take from it, and from conversations with the two trans people I know (a small sample, I know) is that many trans people have as many concerns about self identification as I do as a natal woman. Do you feel that you have a voice within the trans community (for want of a better term) or do you feel drowned out by the TRA?

GrockleBocs · 24/02/2018 12:20

Amy that's a very sensible post, thank you. I would absolutely support your rights under the GRA and would be very happy if the current law was maintained with any strengthening of protections required.

Jaygee61 · 24/02/2018 12:29

Thank you for your post Amy.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 24/02/2018 12:31

A lot of people cite hypothetical scenarios of men abusing the system to gain access to some women's service of space. I think that if this happens it will be very rare and will most likely be someone proving a point.

Unfortunately, one extra abuse of women or girls in my book is one too many. One child being led down the path of sterilisation or surgery before being old enough to even know their bodies, one too many. Rappers can call women bitches, hoes, and cunts; but a teacher calls a girl 'she' and gets the sack because it is 'hate crime'. Women and girls train for years for their chosen sport, and a man comes along, changes his name to a feminine version and that's all the women's hopes and dreams shattered.

It is not rare. It is becoming mainstream. That is the issue.

BertrandRussell · 24/02/2018 12:33

I wonder whether there is mileage in highlighting a distinction between transgender and transsexual. Amy, please feel free to ignore me, but can I ask whether you think of yourself as transsexual or transgender?

DaisyDrip · 24/02/2018 12:43

amycollins That was a very measured and considered post. You are what I refer to as old school transsexuals. We have been sharing our spaces with OST for decades with very few issues. You are not the problem. We also appreciate self ID will likely negatively impact on you too. We have several OST who post who are as opposed to self ID as I am and for the same reasons.

I will take issue when you say "A lot of people cite hypothetical scenarios of men abusing the system to gain access to some women's service of space. I think that if this happens it will be very rare and will most likely be someone proving a point." simply because there are hundreds of documented cases of it happening. I would recommend you Google Target after bathroom self ID to read the cases.

People like you didn't demand we force our children onto drugs that cause tragic issues such as infertility at an age when a child can't possibly look to a time they would like a family. Yes, many OST state they knew they were trans young and wish they could have done something earlier.

I hope that in your (admittedly, very gentle) attempt to make us understand things from your point of view (many of us do anyway) you won't throw woman, the thing that means so much to you too, under the bus in a misguided attempt to get the trans issue onto the political agenda.

MaisyPops · 24/02/2018 12:47

What a fabulous post Amy.
You sound like one of my friends who has recently started the transitoon process and is doing everything properly.

I have lots of time for transwomen like you.

I don't have time for TRAs and people who stick a dress on and think 'i self ID as a woman so there'.

The reason the trans debate (at least in my opinion) has become so heated is because whereas in the past it was 'yes some people are trans. They transition abd don't be a dick to them', we now have people denying biological fact and abusing who question them. The angry TRA and their posse seem to me a danger to transmen/women who have transitioned and just want to get on with life.

ShotsFired · 24/02/2018 12:53

@amycollins I believe that despite the visceral barrage of anti trans comments on this thread, this is a minority view point and that this is simply an angry echo chamber. Since transitioning, I have received acceptance, kindness and respect. Other Women have been universally welcoming.

First off, welcome to the conversation. It's always good to hear civilised and reasonsed points of view, and thank you for engaging.

However, if I may be so bold as to request you read my second post on this thread, as I feel you are not seeing what you think you are seeing.

I have c'n'p it below for convenience:

===============================================

ShotsFired Thu 22-Feb-18 22:30:56
@Lilyyulelog Or is it just that whether or not they are isn't actually the real issue? But surely it is...

And to respond on this point:

The problem is not with transsexuals who live, work and play in their social construct of woman. You and I have been aware of these people for years and have not felt in danger or at risk from people dealing with a very difficult mental illness.

The problem is a new breed of trans rights activists, who are essentially just men's rights activists who are looking to trample on women's rights and remove the female only spaces and opportunities in a land grab for their own benefit. They do not live, work and play as women, and they largely have no intention of ever transitioning to do so.

It is this particular group of men who are are the ones screaming for self id - these proposals would literally enshrine the right to state "I am a woman" with no changes to their life, bodies, looks, way of life, work or anything whatsoever, and they would be afforded entry, access and opportunities previously held for woman only.

In an even nastier twist of this, come the sexual predators who realise that this self id is a absolute free ride for them to get at their victims. No more need to spend years tediously wriggling their way into powerful or trusted positions . Just say the magic words and hey presto, instant, lawful access to rape centres, changing rooms, women-only places anywhere.

It's late for me, so I won't go into great detail here on the effects of all this on children (pushed into off-label medication that will permanently sterilise and disfigure their bodies/genitals); and lesbian and gay people (erased from being as they will be pushed into being "straight trans" instead); and the dangers to the gender dysphoric transsexual community (called "truscum" by the TRA lot). Not to mention all the other insidious side effects of this proposal.

BigDeskBob · 24/02/2018 13:01

"I wonder whether there is mileage in highlighting a distinction between transgender and transsexual."

How does that help women and girls? Will the distinction lead to fewer girls transitioning? Will women and girls feel safer when an obviously male person is sharing their female space. Are women happy for a transexual males performing smear tests on them?

Are we going to allow transexual males to speak for women? Are we happy to allow transexual males to be counted as women in respect of representing in parliament, for example?

I'm told time and time again that there are hundred, thousands of transexual males who just want to get on with their lives, they would never enter women's spaces or call themselves female. These people are horrified at TRA and don't want to stop debate. Where are these people? Is Amy really one?

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