AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

Anxious it’s very common, just take a look at the SN section of mumsnet. My son has attended many schools too and lots of others parents don’t have the backing of school when applying for extra funding.

I myself have had to lodge numerous SENDIST appeals and pay for numerous experts to assess my child etc, as have numerous other parents, without the backing of school!

It really is common.

Anyhow I digress, this has nothing to do with the OP. My point was there is funding available. It’s not easy, however not impossible.

OP can't apply for the funding though can she? It's irrelevant

Did you read my post Green, “this has nothing to do with the OP”?!

The thread moved on pages ago and has become a more general discussion.

Green everyone has already agreed pages ago, violence is NOT acceptable. No child should be beaten around the head, have lessons disrupted etc.

We had kinda moved on to how do we prevent this from happening.

I suggested applying for extra funding. What do you suggest?

Haven't read the whole thread but I'd be very concerned if my son was worrying about being targeted in the class room by another pupil op. Have you spoken to the school again after this latest scribbling on artwork incident? What action are they taking? They need to ensure that your son feels safe and confident in the classroom.

Hahaha this thread is just getting ridiculous now.

Children can't just be naughty/bastards? Their behaviour is a form of communication and therefore neither good nor bad? So presumably that means if their behaviour is never "bad", they should never be punished, right?!

Give me a fucking break. 🙄

The kid who pushed me in the road when there was traffic coming didn't have any SEN or LD issues, he didn't have a difficult home life (his mother doted on him and was one of those "my darling Peter can do no wrong" types), and he certainly wasn't a "voiceless child semaphoring his anguish". He was a bully, simple as that. He was gobby twat who laughed at me being visibly shaken by what he'd just done to me. The only thing he was communicating was that he had the power to endanger and intimidate smaller, nerdier, less confident kids like me, and that he enjoyed doing so

But yeah, lets just pander to children like that and find ways to categorise them as somehow being victims too eh? God forbid someone should actually recognise the possibility that a kid can just be plain nasty.

I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with calling that lad a little bastard for the way he treated me when we were kids. And given that his mum - his own mum, ffs - has also retrospectively described him as being "a little sod" at the time, I don't see how anyone else can credibly disputes this assessment either.

Ahungrymum Of course not all violent children have SN’s and vice versa.

As I said upthread my son has autism, he is extremely passive, quiet, well behaved. He has been severely bullied by his neurotypical peers, because he is vulnerable, passive, quiet and unable to explain situations he finds stressful well.

I think on the assumption that something must be going on for bullies to make them want to hurt others.

I also think there is a difference between neurotypical bullies and children with SN’s who lash out for totally different reasons.

Although both are obviously unacceptable, regardless of SN’s.

I agree to an extent. I do think the causes of lashing out are different for a child with SN, sensory overload for example, which a NT would not experience to the same degree. Although both are probably caused by not coping with whatever feeling.

Your son shouldn’t have to be around someone who attacked him.

Complain to the school.

I agree zzzzz punishment doesn’t change a behaviour. Trivialising isn’t helpful either, more understanding a behaviour, to reduce triggers was more my point

I don't know what schools and teachers you've had contact with, Shed, but stating that teachers don't even try, or that schools won't back parents is a horrifying generalisation and something that I have never, ever experienced in many years of teaching and working in educational inclusion.

We have experienced this not in one school, but actually in two. One mainstream, one specialised - two different children. It happens. It shouldn't, but it does.

When I found out that my (then) 5yo's school was shutting him in an isolation room alone when he was having autistic meltdowns (due to lack of support as they refused to provide the needed support), I withdrew him the same day. I will note that the asst headteacher sat right in front of me that day and told me they put him in there as punishment for his behaviour, even though they knew it was related to SNs and even though they knew he was not receiving support. God knows we tried to get the support for him, meeting after meeting, bringing in Parent Partnership, contacting the LA, and finally going around the school to get assessments without their cooperation (they refused to fill out the paperwork and didn't assist with any referrals).

Three years later, he is still terrified not only of schools but of the door being closed in any room that he is in.

This was a school where he was bullied relentlessly, but the school stated it wasn't bullying because he fought back. Basically, the teachers were doing nothing to stop it,even after it was reported, so his anxiety reached a point where as soon as the bully started on him,he fell apart and lashed out. Then he got in trouble and put in isolation - a 5yo boy, screaming and crying, alone in a little room, unable to get out. We were told that if he didn't have SNs (which they acknowledged he had, but refused to support), they would have excluded him. Instead, they terrorised him by locking him in a room.

If he went back to school now, he'd likely lash out at anyone that upset him. His anxiety would be that sky-high. We home ed - it's better for him academically as well.

But... the other parent said my child was the bully because he hit her child.

The other situation is long and complicated, so I won't go into it here.

There are good schools out there, with teachers that go that extra mile. But there are also very poor schools - and it starts at the top. The school that this occurred at had a change in a number of admin positions, including headteacher and senco, about a year before this situation. This changed the way the school dealt with children with SNs dramatically. Prior to that, it was excellent. The difference was shocking. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.

Oh yes I know zzzz

My son has always been on the receiving end too. Only once in 13 years has he ever lashed out, strangely the word he used to describe how he was feeling at the time of lashing out was ‘safe’, not angry or frustrated or your typical feeling.

I think the parents of some aggressors would certainly say their child gets deliberately wound up by the other children. I see it all the time, they know which children to do it too and how to push their buttons and how they will react and they think it's funny, until someone gets hurt. Even then they will still do it again and again. Sometimes that leads to an innocent 3rd part being in the firing line. Sometimes they lash out at the kid winding them up but I've seen even the nicest generally lovely children become involved in telling tales/winding others up at times.

Sometimes I suspect the aggressor is overloaded, school aren't dealing with it in a suitable manner or putting suitable interventions in place so they meltdown/lash out.

I think it's rarely a child just being naughty when there's ongoing severe behavioural problems at school. Regardless of what anyone thinks no one has any idea of what does or doesn't go on in anothers home.

I see that too zzzzz, the quiet ones get targetted. Again not even necessarily by kids who some would class as bullies but sometimes by their friends or kids who are usually lovely but have got drawn into it.

I think if you have caring parents it's hard on both sides. No one wants their child hurt, no one wants their child to be the one who hurts others.

Absolutely agree zzzzz. I think people jump to blame the child (or the parents) when actually it's often bad/ineffectual management of such situations on the schools part. That lets all the kids down sadly. You see it so often as well.

Sorry to hear your son was so badly affected.

I don't know what schools and teachers you've had contact with, Shed, but stating that teachers don't even try, or that schools won't back parents is a horrifying generalisation and something that I have never, ever experienced in many years of teaching and working in educational inclusion

It's a very accurate generalisation. Supportive schools are not the norm.

My son has attended 3 MS placements, been bullied severely on a daily basis.

He now attends a specialist school, all pupils have SN’s and stereotypically should have more ‘challenging’ behaviour problems, ‘bullying’ is rare and not severe. My son has not been severely ‘bullied’ for the first time in 7 years. He feels safe. He knows any incidents will be believed, dealt with and resolved.

What’s the difference I’ve been asking myself.

It’s the school ethos, inclusion and anti bullying strategies. Children having their needs met. School accepting what bullying is and that it does happen.

There is no punishment for ‘bullying’ or being ‘disruptive’. They have conflict resolution, often involving the ‘victim’. They are encouraged to think why the behaviour is unacceptable, the impact on the ‘victim’ and what they could do differently next time in a nutshell. This seems to work well as other consequences for repeat ‘offenders’, I have never known to be used as the behaviour isn’t constantly repeated.

Disruption in a classroom, yes occasionally a child will shout, get frustrated, swear etc. As above, also taught to use strategies they find calming, instead of shouting etc.

Other pupils are also supportive of each other and ask pupil if they are ok, when they get stressed etc

All children are aware of the bullying email address to staff and can email, they also have an emotional well being officer to talk to.

It sounds to me like the school might have decided that it's "better" to place thr disruptuve child into a bright vlass full if well behaved children, probably on the grounds that there'll be nobody in there who the disruptive child can bounce off/get involved.

Sometimes that can be an ideal situation. (E.g. last year i had a child moved into my GCSE class because my group were a bright group and nobody was going to suffer fools gladly so if disruptive child tried to play to an audience my lot would ignore, I'd give no air time and withib 2-3 weeks and a few talks they realised that it wasn't worth their time and it was much easier to gain attention positively).

However, it depends on the group, the child and the teacher. Yoy can have a great group and a strong teacher but if thr approach is off for the disruptive child it can be awful. Equally, you have some children who are hell bent on doing what they want and want to trash learning for others (SEND needs aside) because that's how they've been allowed to behave and home/school have made excuses iver the years until they get to y10 and feel utterly untouchable. In which case until senior leadership actually put their foot down, the child will simply learn that they are a unique case and rules don't apply to them.
Meanwhile well behaved children see disruptuve child being rewarded and mollycoddled and start to feel resentment. (To quote one of my students 'don't you notice how x y z get reward afternoons just for not being awful and yet we do everything we should and it's just expected).

Supportive schools are not the norm.

How depressing that this is your opinion. I’ve known hundreds and hundreds of teachers in my time and only about 3 bad eggs. Everyone else has been hugely supportive of children and the vast majority have made it their life’s work to make things right for the kids they look after.

I would argue that in my experience it is the norm that staff in schools are supportive.