AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

Unfortunately,, schools do not have a budget to always provide 1:1 support. As a teacher, I can tell you, we teach a LOT of kids like P, some totally unsuitable for mainstream education, but schools can't turn them away just because they are difficult (they have to be somewhere), money is not there for support with the budget being reduced each year. I saw 4 children with special needs in one class sharing one TA, and sometimes not even having him/her at all. 1:1 is completely impossible with the resources existing. Teachers try to do everything they can to support all children, but some are, well, beyond any help and we have to deal with that, somehow, and the support plans often are not helpful. Believe me, it's difficult for everyone. My symphaties, but the only thing you can do is to lobby local MP for increasing schools' funding so that we can actually do our jobs.

This could be a case of the local education authority trying to find a place - any place - for P. I know a child with similar traits who was excluded from 3 mainstream schools before the age of 10: currently 13 and home schooled (for which the provision is pitiful). His home life has no bearing on his behaviour and this particular boy has been (after many, many years) diagnosed with high functioning autism (and I think PDA has been mentioned). The LEA were basically putting him in any educational environment they could, including a place that bordered on a borstal: the boy's parents took him out after a few days as his behaviour deteriorated and the parents were verbally abused and physically threatened by other students. Perhaps the LEA in your case is doing something similar: trying to find some place that can cope with P. But P is not your problem, your DS is, and if P's presence is having a detrimental effect on him then you need to take this up with the head ... if P is anything like the boy I know, then chances are the teacher has already brought it up.

If making a complaint, do not go straight to the Governors if you haven't followed procedure. The governors will just hand it to the HT if you haven't made a formal complain to the HT first. If you haven't already, ask for a copy of the school complaints procedure and follow it.

MyNewBear I’m sure they do think it’s better for P to be in that class, for all the reasons you mention. But why do his learning needs trump that of 31 other children?

Laundry yes, I’m making assumptions, based on the fact that he lives with a female relative but not his parents. He’s only 11 so I’m assuming that it is a chaotic home that is causing the anger issues. He may have SEN, but then he has even less chance of working well in this class without 1:1 support.

hmmmwhattodo we’re not in the UK. Different intermediate schools here have different methods of handling the extension sets - there’s a one day school for bright kids that some of them send their top students to, other schools have streamed subject classes. This one puts them all in one class for two years.

I feel unreasonable about it. But my son isn’t going to get these two years of school back again.

Also, it sometimes is easier to put such children in classes where there are no other distractions, rather than being put in a potentially more difficult environment where he could rub off other difficult students. It's possible he would not keep up in any class, accelerated or not, so why not make it more manageable and put him in a class with high aspirations, where he would not bounce off other students with difficulties. I know it's not what you would like to hear, but that's reality and I know where the school was coming from.

I’d make a complaint every time there is an incident. Ask for meetings, use email to keep an electronic record and keep escalating the complaint. It shouldn’t take too long before he is moved.

It isn’t fair on any child in this class including the boy with behaviour issues. Horrid for the teacher who will be planning two separate lessons for each class as he won’t be able to access the work at the level of the others. Unfortunately these things only get changed after a lot of evidence showing that it isn’t working from the teacher or when a parent makes themselves more of a pain to SLT than moving the boy will be.

Lady Renoir, children like this are exactly what the EHCP process is for. The budget is irrelevant for children with EHCP as there is a legal statutory duty for the local Authority to deliver the provisions stated in the ehcp.

The school or the child’s parents should apply, push for assessment and get his suitable placement and or support sorted.

No budget is no excuse.

Under no circumstances should the potential of 31 pupils whether they are high achieving or not, be impacted negatively by one pupil who has already demonstrated significant disruptive and violent behaviour in other schools.

My advice would be to make an appointment with a member of the SLT to outline the violence afforded your son previously and to ask for an action plan to be put in place to prevent any recurrence and also to include what is being put in place to safeguard the standards of learning and teaching for your child. I'd also be very clear that if thete is any recurrence you will repirt the assault to the police and regard the school as negligent in the context of safeguarding.

The boy needs to be permanently excluded and at a PRU.

I think the default for kids like "P" is often to put them in the lower sets. But then the difficulty is that the bottom set is then a mix of hardworking kids with lower ability and disaffected kids with poor behaviour.
Thats really unfair on lower ability kids who, if anything, need a calmer environment and less disracted teachers who can really concentrate on them.
It may be that "P" is intellectually able but for whatever reason has problems behaviourally. The high set might well be more appropriate for him.
Its early days- I think the school should at least be given the benefit of the doubt to see if this can work. You say the boy has had warnings and a "strike" for bad behaviour so clearly the teachers are addressing things. It may be that they do end up moving him to specialist provision but that would (rightly) be a last resort.
I certainly don't think you should be sabotaging the schools efforts by "keep kicking up a fuss every time the slightest thing happens" as suggested by another poster . Although you should of course make sure your son knows he can come to you if there is any further violence.

Raindropsandsparkles The boy needs to be permanently excluded and at a PRU. Nonsense. You have no idea why he is behaving this way, so you have no idea what the correct provision should be.

I presume the OP is actually somewhere like Australia or NZ given that she says the school.year only started a week ago. So suggestions te governing bodies or LEA responsibilities aren't necessarily helpful. But it would be useful if the OP clarified which country she is in.

I’m not the only parent who is unhappy. DS1’s friend (the boy who was chased & had a chair thrown at him) is also in this class, his father has already been discussing this with the head. Other parents in this class are also concerned - even the ones from other primaries who don’t know the history (although they probably do as I expect the children have talked about it).

We wrote an email to the class teacher with our concerns and had a fairly standard reply. “Thank you for letting us know, we are fully aware, strategies are in place, we are monitoring, school rules will apply to all pupils” (after I’d mentioned that DS1’s place was dependent on achieving a certain standard and asked for reassurance that if disruption was causing issues, it would be dealt with).

It sounds like the child shouldn’t be in your son’s class.

However it is now extrememly difficult for schools to refuse to accept children onto roll, and similarly difficult to remove them. There’s an expectation from government that permanent exclusions not happen, that schools repeatedly attempt to make it work regardless of the behaviours of the child. There are too few schools that have the capacity to cope with children with complex behavioural needs, and places on roll at them are scarce.

I suspect your son’s school are currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, and are trying to do the best by this child as well as the majority of the cohort. A separate class was always going to look appealing as it is usually not as involved with the rest of the school and therefore easier to manage. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it’s probably the best option for now.

Absolutely raise any and all incidents to the head, and if you feel you’re not being listened to do take it to the governing body. Don’t go to the governors first, they will refer you back to the correct procedure of dealing with issues in school first. Don’t focus your complaints on the other child, focus them on your child’s learning, and the effects the other child is having on it.

Good luck.

Actually laundrymountain we had similar when dd was at a super duper cofe comp. There were four like this boy and the school made excuse after excuse. The four were eventually excluded in yesr 11 - about six weeks before gcse's.

DD left end of year 8. Other well behaved high achievers left too. They left behind higher achievers whose parents didn't have the means to transfer them. No girl who remained at that school got into Oxbridge or medicine for the first time in several generations. Good staff left due to poor leadership and the high achievers who left for schools where this nonsense is not tolerated were successful with Oxbridge and medicine applications.

The system at present reeks of politicised liberalist excuses which are dragging all those in it down.

Sorry - yes, NZ.

While we don’t have an LEA type setup, there are governors (board of trustees) that we can write to. One of them has a girl in the class so is already aware.

No PRU either, SEN students are all in mainstream. There’s a residential school for girls with behavioural problems that can’t cope with mainstream school locally, but no such provision for boys. There should be, but there is no funding.

I’m sure P has had a shit start in life, have no idea what sort of chaotic home background he has had to cause these angry violent rages.

woah woah woah there

YOu have NO IDEA why this child behaves the way he does. Do NOT judge his parents unless you have seen with your own eyes that they are shitty. There are many factors that affect a child's behaviour at school, not least the noise levels in some classes, kindly don't immediately blame a shitty home life.

I’m astounded by posters saying he shouldn’t be in a mainstream provision! Or he should be in a special school! So it would be ok for him to hurt and disrupt other children with special needs, just not NT children!

It’s about appropriate support in ANY school.

By all means complain and complain again. By complaining you will be doing the boy a favour and it should lead to him getting more support and keeping everyone safe!

In this situation, I would ask for DS to be moved back into the 'normal' class in the short term. He'll have a much better learning experience. You might have to think about moving him to a different school all together, would he pass for scholorships to private schools?

The school has to manage 'P' one way or another. If they think he'll keep up better in the higher set, so be it, but your focus should be your DS, and if he's unlikely to do well in the same set as P anyway, might as well move him to somewhere he can enjoy his school experience.

Agree Qvar. It’s a point I made too, but the OP hasn’t addressed it. It doesn’t fit the narrative though.

I don’t think that P’s needs outweigh the needs of the other 31 children in the class. But if they move him to another class he will simply be disrupting a different class of 32 children?

I don’t think that by virtue of being in a top set your DS and his classmates have more of a right to be kept seperate from P than children in the standard sets. He has to be in one of the classes - it’s unfortunate for your DS that it’s his class, but if school staff have decided that this is the best class then hopefully in the long term it will be a positive decision. If they feel he has the best chance of modifying his behaviour in this class then maybe in time he won’t be the disruptive boy he is now and that will have a positive impact on both his learning and the learning of the peers he used to disrupt.

Are you in UK? I'm amazed that senior staff members were so willing to discuss another child with you. Focus on making your child more resilient and committed. It is likely to resolve itself in time.

It is op concern what class P is in, if he is struggling with the work and thus disruptive for the rest. I would arrange a meeting with the headteacher, if no joy governors. Sounds like mainstream school is not right for P.

Keep.a diary and present it to the headteacher.

If you were in the UK I would say you should formally register your concerns about the school's safeguarding of your son. Ofsted are hot on safeguarding, and look at how the school handles safeguarding concerns. Obviously I don't know the school system where you are.