AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

@NotMeNoNoNo how exactly do you come to the conclusion that P is the real victim here?! Nobody has thrown a chair at him, nobody has repeatedly punched him in the head, and despite multiple incidents of violence which, some might argue, should result in him having forfeited his rights to inclusion/mainstream education, he retains the benefit of a place in a mainstream school, and on top of that he has been given a non-earned place in a class which others have had to sit in an entrance test to pass, despite not having sat the entrance test himself. Doesn't sound to me like his future chances are crumbling away, it appears the mainstream education system is bending over backwards to accommodate him and give him further chances....

Doesn't make much sense putting P in a class where a special exam had to be taken. It sounds like he didn't take the exam and is not up to scratch academically. I would be really annoyed OP if my ds felt unhappy and intimidated with him being there

Anxious and Green - this funding

Core Education Funding:
The AWPU (Age Weighted Pupil Unit) – This is dependant on the total number of pupils in a school. Each pupil (both with and without SEN) is provided with a certain amount of funding to meet their educational needs. There is no set amount per pupil but there is now a general belief that this is the equivalent of £4,000 per pupil.

(b) Additional Support Funding (ASF):
On top of the core education funding, schools are given an additional amount of funding to meet the special educational provision of pupils with SEN. This funding comes from a particular funding stream called either the designated schools grant or schools block. This funding forms part of a school’s ‘notional SEN budget’.

Currently, the government suggests that a school should use their notional SEN budget to fund up to £6,000 worth of special educational provision for a pupil with SEN. This is an average figure, as not all pupils with SEN require special educational provision beyond the amount of £6,000. It should heavily depend on the individual needs of each pupil with SEN. Additional support funding is used for pupils requiring special educational provision, including, for example, the commissioning of external experts such as therapists to attend a school and provide support.

(c) Top-up Funding:
If a school requires funding that goes beyond the maximum £6,000 to provide a pupil’s special educational provision, then depending on the assessed needs of the pupil concerned, the LA will provide the required funding from the LA’s high needs block.

Anxious I’m finding this thread frightening for very different reason to you. As a teacher you are promoting the exclusion of pupils, rather than applying for funding!

I thought this thread was getting somewhere. I give up.

Let’s reopen the asylums, stick all the undesirables there or maybe an island somewhere. I’d happily go to the island.

@Shedmicehugh

Actually, you know nothing about me and the fact that you're saying that I'm for exclusion is actually laughable, considering the major inclusion work I do with SEN children, gypsy traveller children, LAC, Young Carers and those with behavioural issues.

You can't have been near a school in recent years, if you actually believe that there is a magic pot of money for these children.

Let me just tell you this: There isn't.

Weeping at the 'funding'.

£4,000 given to the school per pupil (and it's not as much as £4,000 in my county) - this pays for teaching staff, books, other stationery etc etc.

If you spend £6,000 on a pupil with SEN, that's all their share of the teacher /stationery / etc budget AND half another pupil's.

EHCPs are as rare as hen's teeth and most (although not all) take years to apply for in order to show the correct evidence.

Ed Psychs in our county are £600 per visit.

Our LA would laugh in our faces if we ventured to ask for a 'top up'. We had a massive barney with ours as they said we have to pay the first £6000 for a child (with 1:1 TA on EHCP) who was not coping in mainstream education for her to go to a special school - ie, she would still be 'on roll' at our school and we would be financially responsible for her.

YANBU. if a child is consistently disruptive and violent to others too, they should not be in a group setting. I don't know what could be done with them, but its unfair on the others who have to be with them. This may mean exclusion, or one on one teaching if funding is avail;able, but its simply not fair to expect the other kids to put up with being punched and such. Regardless of the reason for it.

If you were attacked in the street, the impact isn't 'less' because of any personal problems or previous up bringing.

Exactly.

if attacked, you do not think 'oh the attacker may have had a bad start in life, lets just ignore it'

We have a similar story to a point. DS1was attacked in primary giving him a head injury (one in a series unfortunately) and went to intermediate with the DC who did it. We’re in NZ too.

The intermediate made every effort to keep them apart but I’m guessing it was easier because it was a large school in a city. They made sure they were not in the same class, or team of classes and also not in a team which would go on camp or do sports with the other.

This was all because they knew about the attacks. Does your school know the history properly. I’m assuming your DH made sure in his meeting. They ought to be saying that they will keep a particular eye on your DS and P.

I’m not surprised about the unguarded attitude to confidentiality in terms of the school’s supply of information to you as parents regarding P. It is very typical of what you can expect here in NZ. Medical professionals can be the same. I hear so much stuff that I shouldn’t about others that I now expect that some of our private information isn’t that private.

In terms of what you can do now, I would make sure your communication with DS is daily and warm and accepting and detailed (as much as an intermediate child is prepared to be anyway). Take concerns to the school as they arise e.g. the artwork that was spoiled. Keep confidentially yourself by not sharing details with others. Don’t allow a pattern of small but negative actions to build up to a point where you feel you can go in and tell them the whole story. P probably needs picking up on each whilst he can remember and learn from them.

he attacked your son and now they are in the same class I don't thinks it right at all. if your work colleague attacks you tomorrow you won then have to sit with them and work with them anymore so why should your child! He's probably very scared and nervous I don't think it's on at all. I would certainly speak to school and yes I feel very sorry for the other boy but it doesn't mean all the other children should just live in fear and put up with being attacked.

Anxious - I did not say I know anything about you! I based my comments on your previous comments of what appeared to be promoting exclusion of pupils, I cannot be bothered to copy and paste them.

there is nothing magical about it, your school gets an SEN budget, same as any other. You can the apply for a top budget or high needs funding based on needs, like every other school can.

In my experience some schools spend their Sen budget on other things, instead of SEN as it isn’t ‘ring fenced’ to any individual child or individuals.

And no I don’t teach in a school, however as a parent I have applied for an EHCP for my own child, as school had absolutely no clue what they were doing. As have lots of other parents.

Anxious - I did not say I know anything about you

Yes. You did. You said "As a teacher you are promoting the exclusion of pupils". That's a statement about me, which you can't possibly make. I actually work to promote the inclusion of pupils, so you're incredibly wrong.

The absolute rubbish you are spouting about SEN budgets just goes to show that you know nothing about the subject. Being a SEN parent does not mean you know the ins and outs of how school budgets work and how they are allocated. I'm sure that other teachers will be along soon to tell you the same. There is not funding for every single SEN child. That is not how it works.

Cap EHCP’s take 6 weeks to apply for. 20 week deadline to finalise. The process is made so much easier with the backing of school. Often school won’t apply for it or back parents who apply! Schools often appear as witnesses for the LA to prevent it!

B) additional funding is on top of core budget. However, I won’t argue that funding is lacking. It’s disappointing that some teachers won’t even try. It’s left to parents to fight!

This thread is frightening. As a teacher, I strongly believe that children should be able to attend school without having to be physically harmed. Sadly this is becoming less and less common as my teaching career has progressed. Yes, everyone has a right to education, but not to the detriment of other children. No one child is more important than another.

Yes. I agree.

I am not sure why so many have assumed that this child has SEN either, or that this child is the victim. Some children are just really badly behaved and violent. It does not always mean special needs. And I think this immediate linking of bad behaviour and SEN is pretty shocking to be honest, this should be the kind of link we are NOT trying to make. My daughter has Autism and is extremely well behaved. It would seriously piss me off if people assumed that because of this she was going to be a nightmare child. Same as it annoys me how when there is an example of a child being naughty, on here its always 'well they might have SEN' followed by a bunch of 'that post/opinion is disablist' and such.

Yes. You did. You said "As a teacher you are promoting the exclusion of pupils". That's a statement about me, which you can't possibly make. I actually work to promote the inclusion of pupils, so you're incredibly wrong.

No no. Saying children have the right to get an education without being physically attacked is definitely promoting exclusion of pupils. Though honestly, if a child is consistently violent then I would say they should be excluded. If there cannot be funding to have one on one teaching (and even then the teacher could end up being attacked..) but this would presumably only be available if the child did indeed have SEN? I cannot see funding being given for just kids who are naughty and violent.

YANBU but the funding to this child the help they quite clearly need has been cut. Don’t vote Tory people unless you plan to send your kids to private school and have private medical cover.

The Tories don’t run NZ

I don't know what schools and teachers you've had contact with, Shed, but stating that teachers don't even try, or that schools won't back parents is a horrifying generalisation and something that I have never, ever experienced in many years of teaching and working in educational inclusion.

I think this immediate linking of bad behaviour and SEN is pretty shocking to be honest

Goals, absolutely. The vast majority of the SEN children I work with have wonderful behaviour with the odd exception where bad behaviour is due to medical issues. The children I've taught who have behavioural issues are often those without specific needs.

Yes, there's always a cause/trigger. Some of the worst behaviour I've seen has been in public schools.

Who is saying they shouldn't be helped? OP is simply saying she doesn't want her son physically harmed or his education disrupted. It's not her son's job to help this boy.

RidingWindhorses

Who is saying they shouldn't be helped? OP is simply saying she doesn't want her son physically harmed or his education disrupted. It's not her son's job to help this boy.

Exactly.

So if these voiceless children semaphoring their anguish aren’t to be helped and empathised with what does that say about us?

What does it's say about parents who knowingly send their child into a war zone EVERY day, and NOT feel they have a responsibility to protect that child?
AS a parent you are powerless to act to help your child stay safe and you can only voice your concerns to those responsible for keeping your child safe

That means physically and mentally SAFE.

OP has every right to drop her son off and know her won't come to any harm within school hours

CAN you imagine what happens if a parents allows a child in their care to become harmed? YET schools seem to be exempt from responsibility