AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

zzzzz
Based on thr OP's description they could be a child with additional needs who need support and additional help (but not at the expense of other children) or it could be badly behaved child who needs boundaries and consisency (it's not popular to say it on here but not all bad behaviour is SN. Look at terrors on supernanny to see what discipline and boundaries can di)

However, i woukd say there probably is a significant difference in abilities. I teach a mixed ability y7 class but the mix (ignore sats for now) is actually largely above average. They are writing GCSE style essays for me and today some came to ask about homework with a friend and their friend said they don't di anywhere near as much in their class.
If we set, i could easily see the difference between our 7s.

Maisypops what support has child 3 been receiving?

We've had CAMHS involvement, learning mentors, onsite counsellors, a safe space to go to when overwhelmed, time out cards, english and maths intervention (because often low prior literacy leads to students feeling helpless across the curriculum), 6th form buddy and mentor, access to homework zone, partnershio programmes with charity groups.
All sorts.
But child decides he doesn't fancy something one week so it's 'oh maybe it's not the end of the world' or they are foul to staff/studnets but we shouldn't do anything becaude 'issues'
Sometimes the chikd ends up in isolation for their awful behaviour. Other times they get to sit with a hot chocolate and blame staff. It depends which member if SLT picks them up.

I'm all for putting in support for pupils. It comes with responsibility too though. There shouldn't be a situation where one child can get to a point in a school where they feel utterly untouchable and walk around with such arrogance and even dare staff to try and do something about it.
With boundaries and consistent sanctions we probably could have got somewhere with thr multitude of stuff we've tried, but none of it's worked because a couple of senior people allowed the child to do what they liked.

School decide that the quiet high achieving group is likely to suit him best as the children are more mature and once remedial work is done would be his cohort. They decide to aim high for this child. (Yay!)

That's quite some fantasy. The reality:

He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

He's been put there simply because he will be easier to manage in a quiet class.

I know a child 3. He is younger than your child 3.

He has currently in a PRU and has been in and out of foster care, due to behaviour. He clearly has a disability (I haven’t even met him!) However he has been labelled as ‘naughty’.

His home is not terrible. His mum has been trying very hard but has been given inaccurate info, based on his ‘naughty’ behaviour and been told to more strict. Which has backfired and resulted in him having to put in foster care.

The PRU had told his mum they are responsible for deciding if he needed assessments for any diagnosis and in their opinion he didn’t. She just needed to stop letting him get away with his behaviour.

He has involvement from CAMHS and social services. Various strategies in school to deal with his ‘naughty’ behaviour.

Despite involvement from the above not one person had informed his mum, she can ask for a referral from a GP for an assessment. An EHCP, mum was not even aware they existed.

I very recently helped her fill out some forms and she had her folder of paperwork. Her son already has a diagnosis of sorts, which mum wasn’t even aware was a diagnosis. It appears neither were any professionals despite being copied into the report.

How sad is it that with all that involvement, it took another mum to point it out and help her get on track.

OP's son knows the reality of his behaviour.

He shouldn't be disprupting any set.

zzzzz
When the arrogance comes to a child who could (and should) have had boudaries along side supportive meausres years ago telling staff to fuck off and then laughing in their face saying 'but what are you gonna do' then no, I'm not ok with that. The arrogance has come from knowing nothing will be done.
It annoysme because here is a child who is going to leave with limited qualifications and lacking the life skills to function fully and reach their potential. Vulnerable children need support abd boundaries in equal measure so they feel safe and know the score, not a passive acceptance of 'oh but that's just how Timmy is'.

Not giving structured appropriate support and boundaries fails children like child 3 who deserve more.

He's been put there simply because he will be easier to manage in a quiet class.
I've seen that happen.
It's the exaggerated version of 'sit the naughty/disruptuve children next to quiet compliant ones'. And it's not fair oj either of them.

School decide that the quiet high achieving group is likely to suit him best as the children are more mature and once remedial work is done would be his cohort. They decide to aim high for this child. (Yay!).
And I have happily taken children into my class for these reasons and put remedial programmes in place.
One of my currenr GCSE students is in that situation and thriving now. It was the right move for them and eveb Mum said she can't believe the difference.

The danger is that we end up in a situation where professionals aren't willing to have serious and realistic conversations about behaviour so with some you get additional needs not being met because tje child is branded as naughty, whilst others you get students who learn to get away with poor behavioir and it gets explained away 'because issues...'. Neither help the children

OP if I where you, I wouldn't worry too much about P being in the class. (But I would raise the issue with the form tutor.)

Sadly, if the child is as you described, he won't be at this particular school very long. Which in turn will resolve the issue.

Maisypop if child 3 has had all that involvement and it’s ineffective. Why haven’t school applied for more specialist support? An EHCP for example.

We've had SEND assessments.Nothing.

Interventions haven't worked because they child was able to opt in/out as abd when (why wouldn't they? Thry opt in/out of lessons, rules, the law out of school)

Ultimately, loads of those interventions would probably have had impact if the child had boundaries through school. I know it's not popular to say to some (because we should never insist on basic expectations being followed) but consistency and boundaries makes a massive difference. There has to be a point where the line is 'this is not ok and these boundaries are in place along witb other things because we actually care about not slinging your life chances away so much as it's going to be a tough few months, it's worth us having that battle as adults so that you can reach your potential'.

I had a child get teary and emotional on me last term (really tough lad). I asked what was wrong. He said he felt valued. All I'd done was catch him at break for a chat about an incident and talk to him about steps moving forward because he's better than his behaviour. He's not all the way there yet, but he knows that there is unconditional positive regard there for him and whilst i'm understanding and support him i won't accept certain things 'because it's Timmy'. For him that idea of someone expecting more was so unusual for him. That'd tragic that a child can feel like nobody expects much of them and tragic that adults can allow that to happen.

Marisy - what you do mean an SEND assessment was carried out and nothing?

He is in the care of the LA. A child in their care has behavioural and emotional difficulties, can’t follow instructions, walks out of class, no chance of getting any qualifications or holding down a job, no life skills, no social skills.

I’m not an expert, that does not sound like ‘nothing’. It sounds like SEN, bearing in mind the definition of SEN.

My understanding is the usual course of action when strategies are ineffective and no progress has been made is that school change strategies and apply for more support, more expertise etc. Bearing in mind that support is based on needs, not a diagnosis.

Schools/LA’s cannot just say we tried, it didn’t work, blame the child and give up! You take appropriate steps. If they do give up then the educational system and the adults involved in this, have failed a vulnerable child!

Educational Law is there for a reason, to be used!

I'm not a SEND expert, or do i teach the child. The info i get comes out of our briefings of what's going on with key students.

There may well be something. Based on what we are given as updates and saying they've had assessors in etc there was nothing flagged up.

Maybe I'm missing something but you seem fairly insistent that there has to be some sort of issue and that school not placing consistent boundaries has nothing to do with it (when almost all training I've done through schools says consistency and boundaries are key for helping children feel secure).
Sure the boundaries may differ for aome students, but that consistency matters.

I have a child with ASD in my class and mental health issues. It does them no good if on monday something is acceptable and by wednesday it's not. That's not fair on them. I cut them slack on a few things, work brilliantly with home but the fact remains that if there wasn't a consistent line in class then that childs wouldn't know where they stood.

Boundaries and consistency aren't some sort of horrible uncaring concepts. Boundaries and consistency work hand in hand with the view 'i value you and i know you can achieve'. Accepting 'that's just hiw timmy is intrinsically as a person' must be a horrible message for kids to pick up on.

If they do give up then the educational system and the adults involved in this, have failed a vulnerable child!
And so we are back to where I started which is accepting a child behaves like child 3, allowing them to opt of out inteventions ans support, giving them no consistency, no boundaries ans leaving them in y11 under the impression they can act how they like in the real.world has let the child down and isn't fair.

I said this at the start of my anecdote about child 3. But the fixation became 'but give a list of things that have been done because it can't be that lack of boundaries and inconsistency in school have played a part in the picture. No it must have nothing to do with that at all. Why haven't they got a send assessment? Clearly that's how it's all a failure'

He works hard and has no more violent outbursts (double yay!) sadly this isn’t how it is turning out although I would like it to be how the story ends!

He doesn’t work at all - he has separate stuff set for some things. In group work he sits back and does nothing while his partner has to do the work of both of them. And there have been violent outbursts although none yet directed at my son - possibly the demonstration of karate at the last school has labelled my son as someone not to be messed with.

However. The interesting twist that has developed is that DS1 has started a lunchtime club running/playing a game. P has asked if he can join. DS has agreed on the proviso that he behaves himself - and so far, in the club, he has been playing well as part of the group. So I think he can control himself, if he chooses to - certainly in this game situations develop that he won’t like, but so far he has been coping well with them according to DS1.

It sounds like this could be a positive move then OP.
I'm very much of the view moves like thsi can be hugely beneficial (if well planned with support for the child). They can also be 'dump the child in a bright class where they'll cause less disruption' which isn'r fair on anyone.

It sounds like if he's working alone on some tasks then that could be remedial work. I wouldn't worry about him not sharing in group work to start with. The pupil i picked up under similar circumstances (but nowhere near as bad) took a half term to a term to settle. When i caught up with them to cjeck on them tjry said they felt really out of their depth to start with. It made sense, from doing nothing and being disruptive and having a violent outburst to my calm classroom where the class are treated as young adukts who have a voice was a shock. The child is thriving now.

Hopefully that'll be the case for the child in your DC's class.

Maisie - again I’m not getting it. I don’t understand what nothing flagged up means?

As you’ve already said the boy has behavioural and emotional difficulties, can’t follow instructions, walks out of class, no chance of getting any qualifications or holding down a job, no life skills, no social skills.

He has had large involvement and numerous strategies. All have been ineffective and no progress has been made.

That is a massive red flag!! The flag couldn’t get any bigger!

I not ‘fixated’ on boundaries being an uncaring concept! Boundaries are great!

My point is boundaries will not work, without appropriate, effective support.

The way to establish what support is appropriate, isn’t by assessing and concluding ‘no flags’ when as above the flags are glaringly obvious!

Hic - brilliant that sounds very positive! Well done to your son too. He sounds like a kind boy 🙂

Maisy- I will try to explain it in a different way. Unlikely child 3, who demonstrates outwards, challenging behaviours, my son directs his stress inwards, self harms, stops eating, can’t sleep etc when his needs are not being met. Inwards or outwards it’s the same thing. Only difference is outwards causes problems for others. Inwards causes no problem to anyone but himself.

For my son, in brief. Various strategies, CAMHS involvement. It wasn’t enough as my son continued to engage in these behaviours. Its ineffective and no progress was made.

Rather than just continuing with the same unsuccessful strategies, which were obviously not helping. Support was increased and strategies changed.

This was still ineffective and behaviours continued.

Next step was to increase support and to increase specialist input. To increase the level of expertise from professionals and teachers. Change strategies etc.

And so on. Support is pointless, if it stands still and doesn’t move and change, when unsuccessful and ineffective.

Admittedly I had to be the driving force, to achieve this. However, child 3 does not have the support of his parents to be the driving force.

If you are interested and willing to consider different options, other than child 3 is a arrogant, lost cause and just needs boundaries. It may potentially create better outcomes for him, here are some links

www.ipsea.org.uk/what-you-need-to-know/ehc-needs-assessments/asking-for-an-ehc-needs-assessment

www.ipsea.org.uk/what-you-need-to-know/ehc-needs-assessments

www.ipsea.org.uk/what-you-need-to-know/ehc-needs-assessments/what-happens-during-an-ehc-needs-assessment

You are addressing a brick wall, I’m afraid.

RoseWhiteTips
Or actually as it seems, have the same view child 3 has been let down but have differnet perspectives. But hey, why let an interesting discussion get in the way of pointless digs.
Shedmicehugh
I don't think child 3 is a lost cause. I do think the escalation of their behaviour is in part to do with lack of consistency in school.

I think that lack of consistency in school (particularly from 2 members of senior staff) has hindered the effectiveness of support and intervention. Intervention/support doesn't work on a as and when basis. The benefits of programmes don't stand a chance if adults (who should be seeing the bigger picture) allow the children who need the help to opt out when they want etc.

As it happens I teach some of child 3's posse. They were chatting to me on duty today about life after school, hopes, fears, how they can't wait to leave but also don't want to because 'don't take it the wrong way but teachers here do my head in but i actually don't know what i'm going to do when i'm having a crisis. There's always been you lot to go to. Like what am i going to do when you aren't saying 'morning Chloe, and then nagging me about my makeup or make sure you underline the date even though it's a pointless thing to do, i mean who uses a ruler when they've left school.' 😂 Child 3 was lovely and polite to be with. Then the bell went and yhe 'argh no. We've got science! Come for a wandee will you' started.

Child 3 isn't a lost cause. But i do think the approach of senior staff letting them pick and choose etc means the child has never actually meaningfully had a shot at all the things in place. That's my frustration. If child had done all the support etc and it didn't work then we can say 'x didn't work, try y' but you can't say 'x didn't work if tue child did one session of x but next week thry didn't want to and Mrs Blogs said come for a hot chocolate and the week after mr smith said come on child 3 just give it a shot. We'll do it together abd then mrs blogs sees and says 'oh no child 3 come with me for another hot chocolate'.

We can keep putting all the various programmes in place, multiple approaches, multiagecy work as school have but as long as there's a senior teacher who will say 'don't worry come for a chat and a cuppa' then we have no way of establishing any solution works. And that lack of consistency is letting the child down.

Maisy- support kinda does work on a as and when basis. I think you have to bear in mind, particularly for older children, it’s HIS support, not just something that adults decide and is DONE to him. He should be involved in the process.

If he doesn’t want to attend a particular intervention, it’s highly likely that he doesn’t find it helpful! My son has made varied excuses not to attend a counselling session for example if he doesn’t find it helpful. He would never tell anyone to fuck off. My son is far more subtle and ‘inward’.

I know my son doesn’t find it helpful, when adults decide for him. As my son recently said “it’s all well and good teachers saying you need to try x, y,z but it’s not them who have to try, it’s me”. He doesn’t feel listened to. By not listening to, he means teachers listen intently to him, however they are not understanding or taking it on board and still deciding it has to done their way! My son needs to be involved in what HE finds helpful/unhelpful.

Or ‘think positive’, although well meaning, what does that actually mean!? Ignore how you are feeling, pretend to be happy!

I know when my son feels overwhelmed, he actually really appreciates some time out, some time to recoup, gather his thoughts. So a cup of tea and a chat might be really, really helpful!

It’s like telling a child, who cannot read, to try, without first teaching them the skills needed to read and if you can’t do it, you will get a detention!

Establish successful support, then boundaries and consequences.

Given what you’ve already said about this child, I really do feel he needs expert support to prepare him for adulthood.

Maybe he needs more specialist support in school or a more specialist placement. The only way to know for sure what he needs, is as I mentioned earlier. A EHCP assessment in my opinion.