AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

Supportive schools are not the norm

I'd have to disagree. I've found that in my long and varied teaching career in both the public and state sector, schools have been extremely supportive.

I would argue that in my experience it is the norm that staff in schools are supportive
I agree.
It's the same in staffroom chat though. It's worth reminding people that tje vast majority of parents are wonderfully supportive (it's just the unsupportive unreasonable ones are the loudest and the biggest drain of time).

So true Maisy, so true!

In my experience staff in state schools are supportive of the ill behaved, their personal political dogma and themselves. If you pay it's probably the same except they are better at PR and understand that parents are purchasing their services and they need to be accountable.

Actually parents purchase the services of teachers in the state sector too but sadly not all parents have choices and not all teachers understand that their service is free only at the point of delivery.

I have worked in education now for 15 years. It is noticeable that many many teachers who are very good at instructing children do not understand that negotiating is required with adults, especially with adults who may be better qualified than them.

In my experience no teachers have training/qualifications/expertise in all children with disabilities. Or Eductional Law. This is not a slur on teachers.

I would not expect them to, there are far too many ranges of disabilities and variations. It would be impossible for anyone, not just teachers. They don’t have legal training. This is exactly why we have experts and specialists and parents, who are extremely valuable resources, if used.

It’s difficult to support something, you have little or no knowledge of.

The local version of the Tories have been running NZ for the last nine years, and have only in the last few months been replaced.

Take it up with the HT and the Governors. The school has had this boy foisted on them and are having to do the best for the school itself: that’s their priority, not other individual children.
Your priority is your child and P is not your problem so you do what’s best for your DS.

I’m sure P has had a shit start in life, have no idea what sort of chaotic home background he has had to cause these angry violent rages.

Do you know this for sure? All the psychopathic children we've had to deal with over the years all had a great home life but were spoilt and had no boundaries.

Also, not being goady, but what do you expect them to do with this child? I do feel it's a case of 'not in my back yard'...

That said, I totally get that you need to protect your child. I would be doing the same.

I’m sure P has had a shit start in life, have no idea what sort of chaotic home background he has had to cause these angry violent rages.
You don't know that and it does my head in that 'but thry might...' is too often an easy way to explain away behaviour.

Put it this way, we have 4 students in school:

1. A refugee who is a recent entry to the country who has suffered the most awful trauma
2. A child who is in care and has been bounced around the system
3. A child who is in care
4. A child who has no major issues

Child 1 - immaculately behaved and realises the benefit of
Child 2 - has some mental health issues but it rrally well behaved and works hard
Child 3 - Is rude to staff, students, refuses any instruction, walks around yhe place like they are untouchable. Staff don't get backed dealing with their behaviour from SLT because they seem ti be terrified of actually doing anything about this child because they're in care. The reality is if they acted how they do in school on occasions thrn they'd probably get arrested.
Child 4 - self diagnosed with various issues. Hangs around with child 3. Starts acting like child 3 because they've seen child 3 get away with everything.

More and more children join child 3 abd because nothing is done about chikd 3 by GCSE we have a group of 8 children being utter pains and we do our best with the outliers but the real issue is that chikd 3 has been allowed to act that way througg school and now child 3 is getting rewars afternoons out of lessons if thry manage to not trash a couple of lessons.

There are many other children with terribke backgrounds in our school but they are doing brilliantly. Child 3 is like that because they've been allowed to act like that in school.

MaisyPops

Child 3

You don’t know that either! It does my head in when people judge, who are not experts! How do you know what that child has been through? How do you know what needs he may or may not have? Just because child 3 doesn’t behave like child 1 or 2. You do realise experiences or needs affect children in different ways!

I think most people are old enough and ugly enough to know that something isn’t right in P’s world. I dont think it’s unreasonable to make an educated guess that he might have

SEN possibly
Or a chaotic to abusive home background
Or maybe he a rare born psychopath , which is unlikely and rare

And we can say this knowing full well that many kids with SEN don’t manifest this way
Many kids from an abuisve background don’t manifest this way either

It’s very hard to work out how to treat such children with compassion and look after everyone else . I do think that teachers needs to be trusted to some degree . They know their shit and right now they have a solution . Op can take a watchful approach and ensure her son is in open communication with her .

These children exist and I personally think attempts to integrate are better that to exclude - within reason

In a side note has anyone been watching Enlightended Children on iplayer ? It gave me such an insight into what good teachers can do . I don’t envy the position that OP is in and it’s worth taking this with a pinch of salt as this is life . This is school and a degree of resilience and compassion always helps . Easy to say I know

I really wish it was as simple as putting in boundaries and then I would not have one ds in special school and one home educated. Do you honestly think most parents would not have tried this. We certainly did and supported the school when they put boundaries in place too. We eventually learned that until you target the fundamental cause of the behaviour in their case anxiety then you are not going to be able to eradicate the behaviour.

anxious

"You can't have been near a school in recent years, if you actually believe that there is a magic pot of money for these children."

See this article:

www.specialneedsjungle.com/dfe-replies-ehcp-questions/

"The SEND Code of Practice places clear responsibilities on schools to identify and address the needs of all their pupils with SEN and disabilities, including those with high-level needs. This includes meeting the costs of additional SEN support for all pupils up to £6,000. If a pupil requires additional support that costs more, then the school may speak to the local authority about receiving top-up funding from the authority’s high needs budget.

If any school has a high proportion of pupils with high needs, the local authority can provide extra funding to the school, again from its high needs budget, so that the school can meet the extra costs involved in providing this support. These arrangements were introduced in 2013, partly to avoid what was happening in some areas: schools were labelling pupils as having high needs or persuading parents to seek a statutory assessment leading to a statement of SEN simply to secure extra funding for the school."

You can, if you like wade through the DfE's own documents:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-funding-formula-for-schools-and-high-needs

However, SEN budgets in schools are not ring fenced - are you sure that the school(s) you work in, aren't simply using the SEN budget to make up for deficits in other areas of the school budget, like funding staff pay rises and pensions?

Maisy

When we were studying criminal psychology, our lecturer told us that while the criminal justice system is based on the concept of free will and punishment, psychology is moving increasingly towards a deterministic point of view - ie behaviour is determined by:

1. genes
2. biochemistry - such as levels of neurotransmitters in the brain
3. social learning
4. behavioural - operant conditioning
5. cognitive - ie how the individual's brain works

It may be in the example you have given, that child 2 had two "normal" parents, who grew up in multiple deprivations and could not cope as parents; while child 3 was born to a 17 year mother, who grew up in care herself and had borderline personality disorder, and a father with dyslexia. Each child's resilience to what has come their way in life, may be very different!

P's behaviour is not normal for an 11 year old child; he may have been born a psychopath as PP have said, or his behaviour is being determined by any combination of the above factors - none of which are his fault!

Checklist I tried to raise this point and was told I have no idea of what I’m talking about!

SEN budgets can be spent on whatever. FOI requests have shown them being spent on football pitches, car parks etc.

Statements/EHCP are ring fenced to individual children by Law. In my experience even with a statement/EHCP in place, the child may not receive the support, as in schools judgement it’s not needed. Only difference is it’s legally enforceable.

I think one of the difficulties is the level of support children get relies heavily on the schools judgement. The range of disabilities is vast and varied. Schools are not experts in identifying disabilities. Particularly ‘hidden’ disabilities.

To say funding/assessments are not available, as some teachers on this thread have stated is inaccurate. It may not be easy, but not impossible.

About 86% of parents who lodge appeals with SENDIST are successful. That 86% does not take into account appeals which are conceded before hearing.

I totally understand that teachers are qualified to teach and work extremely hard. Some of the best teachers I have ever known are the ones who are not afraid to say I don’t understand all disabilities or how they affect your particular child, but I am willing to listen, try to understand and work with you!

For those who don’t understand what SEN is

“Section 20 Children and Families Act 2014 defines a child as having Special Educational Needs (SEN) if he or she “has a learning difficulty or disability which calls for special education provision to be made for him or her”.

Learning difficulty can be anything, such as behavioural/emotional difficulties which prevents a child from fully accessing the curriculum. Support is based on needs, not a diagnosis.

Re schools not being supportive.
My experience is that some schools do not want to rock the boat with the local authority or don't want it to be seen that they are not coping with a child or simply are not allowed to say they cannot meet a child's needs with the given support( and instead try to push out by the back door). Many others do not know much about education law and believe what they are told by the local authority. This then leaves parents to do all the challenging.

Checklist
And yet child 3 is still acting like they are untouchable and in a matter of months is going to enter a world where that sort of behaviour is not accepted.

I stand by my view. School have allowed that child to be rewarded for their actions and have done almost nothing to support staff, ensure child 3 doesn't hinder learning of the other 29 students in the class and is now about to enter life outside of school under the impression they can do what they like. It's not good for anyone, including child 3.

Things should have been in place (both support and appropriate sanctions) from early on when the behaviour was smaller. But no, staff were told to ignore child 3's behaviour, not to sanction, to not challenge or redirext because 'issues'. Stuff the learning of others. Child 3 can swear at staff, walk out and then sit with a hot chocolate. Child 3's behaviour has been enabled and reinforced so now they're entering the world utterly unprepared for what's in store.

Sadly, partially because of cuts to wider services and partially because some senior staff seem to think that we can'r challenge certain kids, there are children in the educational system who are categorically being failed.

How likely is child 3 to get a job when they'll not get their gcses because nobody said actually stay in class?
How likely are they to do well when they're getting all sorts of intervention but don't use it?
How are they going to manage in a job when they have to follow a reasonable direction from a manager when for 5 years they've been allowed ti say 'noorr wouldn't dare'?
How are they going to manage their interpersonal relationships when they've been rewarded for verbally abusing staff/students?

When schools enable pupils to act like this they are not only failing thay child but letting down the classes who have their education disrupted.

There are fantastic schools and staff, it comes down to if they want to do it.
Or if staff can.

I don't teach child 3 but countless staff over the years have been saying thr same things and each time it's pushed back on them with the line being 'it's X so we can't...' We are a great school so it's an absolute joke that one child can run rings around the site and know they are untouchable.

Another child (same school) was moved back me. They'rr not brilliant but at least in my class they aren't disruptive and things are getting there to support them. I flagged these issues up 2 years ago when i first taught them. It's taken that long yo get some support but they've been excluded 6 times this year and done a managed move. We needed the support years ago

Yes cauliflower, it is depressing! Obviously its just one opinion but I see many parents struggling to get support for their child both in school and out. I'm going into the realm of sen here though rather than speaking generally.

Obviously there are great schools. My sons current school has been our best so far. His last weren't unsupportive, but they weren't proactive either. His first was awful.

Sometimes sadly you get a great teacher but a bad senco or bad management and the LA's seem to make up half the rules in the hope no one will challenge them

Yanbu

Your son is in a class with a boy who assaulted him. He’s had him destroy his work in the last week.

I understand that this boy needs help, but that level of aggression needs far more. He needs one to one and a class suited to his learning needs.

Punching in the head is pretty serious.