AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

I'd written a full reply and then my phone died so excuse the haphazardly redone version (whilst understandably not saying details about the child which are relevant but not for posting).

I'm all for evaluating the impact of intervention and changing it if it's not working. However, there has to be a reasonable shot at it before making that call and where a child has an issue with support plan or intervention it needs to be established it is an issue with the intervention rather than any other issues.

E.g. A child with behaviour needs had an issue in my lesson last term. It all kicked off refusals, you can'r make me, i can't be arsed me etc. They spoke to me later in the lesson and what actually had happened was something had happened with a different member of staff at break so they arrived to me in a heightened state. Their behaviour had nothing to do wirh me or my lesson. Now we didn't cancel English the following week or give them an opt out because they had an issue last week. Equally, we don't give them an opt out for subjects based on 'i don't want to go'. If there's a need for time out card or use of the support base or access to our other services then that is freely given, but it wiuld have been ridiculous to claim the child doesn't have to have Englush because that is English being done to them so they should be able to opt out as and when.

E.g. we have around 50 gcse students who go for maths and English intervention. Would they rather be in tutorial? Yes. But we don't give opt outs based on gcse students saying they don'r want to / sir is useless / what's the point etc. As the adults part of our job is to see the bigger picture and the doors having maths/english opens up. We absolutely have space for pupils to raise actual issues but the default isn't 'but they shouldn't do anything they don't fancy'.

Last year i was stopped by a former pupil who was a bloody nightmare when i used to do intervention teaching in a challenging school. She stopped me in town to thank me and gave me an update on how she was getting on. At the time she hated being told to do intervention but she was grateful after.

Child 3 may need expert support. They may not. They may need more expert support now than if they actually had more consistency when child 3 was younger instead of an inconsistent pick n mix.

Child 3 has lots of potential and can be lovely. I do feel that they've been let down and are in a worse situation now than tbey were when staff first raised issues and staff should have been backed more and some staff should have done a little less 'don't worry about x y z. Have a hot chocolate'.

I think I'm finding it hard to explain any better than that as I'm sure you understand I'm being careful what I'm posting.

Please don't think that I'm some awful people who gives up on kids. I'm not. I just think adults in education sometimes take the path of least resistance in the short term with some pupils and that can exacerbate or fuel issues later on.

I just think adults in education sometimes take the path of least resistance in the short term with some pupils and that can exacerbate or fuel issues later on.

Yes, what you describe makes the transition between junior and senior schools especially difficult

It can do green and the same when in y10/11 children are a complete nightmare but it's almost impossible to get assessment anc exam arrangements done because there's a long process for some of those and really it should have been dealt with in y7-9.

Ps it's person, not people in my last post.

Maisy - I don’t think you are an awful person! I do think child 3 is being let down by the educational system.

You think it’s due to boundaries, wilful, stubborn, hot chocolate breaks or whatever. I don’t agree. Whether you and I agree or not is irrelevant!

The reason for the behaviours is quite irrelevant. The fact remains child is not using strategies and not making progress and as you said will be leaving school with very limited or no skills at all.

You could make a difference.

This is becoming a 2 person discussion, shall we just get a room

I will opt out now and give others a chance to get a word in!

I don't think it's solely down to boundaries. I do think staff should have been more consistent further down the school.
E.g. Child 3 is verbally abusive so was sent out to work in another room with a different member of staff where they can calm down. Policy on that is that they can be back in next lesson following a restorative chat. Most follow it. Then one member of staff sees child 3 calm and working in another person's room, comes in, asks them why they aren't in class (which gets thrm back frustrated again) and then takes them back to their original lesson, disrupts the main lesson and puts a now re-wound up child 3 back into the original situation. Reason 'because it's child 3 so we really need to do things differently'.
The result- child 3 goes from calm abd settled and starting to do some work, back to thr situation where they've kicked off and now either for face saving or fight/flight response (or knowing teenagers both) goes on to disrupt again. They get sent out again and thrn this time wanders the site because what's thr point when miss hates me.

E.g. On Monday you have literacy intervention. We'll review it in a few weeks but that's the plan for now. If child 3 has had an issue earlier in the day and is being all 'nah can'r be arsed' then strategies should be in place from all staff for tem to try and get child 3 to attend. If other support is required or the issue means they can't then fine but the default position from staff should be 'come on, let's go for a walk. Talk it out. Deescalate with a view to gettif the child where they should be. (Rather than what actually happened was teaching staff were doing it, some senior staff were and then some were saying oh don't worry about going. Sit ib my office for an hour and do absolutely nothing so the chikd wasn't in class or intervention and that's an hour of learning gone)

E.g. i teach a child this year who has a risk assessment for their behaviour. Their behaviour can be much more extreme than child 3 but they are ever so polite and would never dream of swearing. And it's all very clear and consistent. Clear expectations and boundaries, consistent approach to their behaviour (and yes that does mean having a different strategy than the main behaviour policy). If X happens, this happens. If they do y in class, you do z and the TA will do... If they need to leave, this is where they go. If they start doing x y z then the class is moved. Following a meltdown, this happens. And the it happens every single time regardless of teacher.

The child is very settled and feels safe. Home love what's in place. Somewhat unsurprisingly, their behaviour very rarely gets to meltdown mode these days.

Shedmicehugh
Just seen your update. Very true.
Interesting though.

This is exactly why an EHCP could be helpful. It identifies needs, exactly what and when support teachers should be giving and for what purpose. It has short and long term outcomes, it measures progress, success criteria etc.

It should enable staff to work together, for the same goal.

I’m really out of here now! I have a meeting to prepare for!

Zzzzzzz superb post. Spot on.

That kid needs an EHCP assessment.

Im sorry but no kid will come before my childs education, they dont know how that kids affecting your child and the other childrens futures / results. I would be having serious angry words about it. If the other boy cant get his act together then he needs to leave to a lesson he can be disruptive in that has a 1to1 ta

And the aggressor get full supervision and the victim doesn't get so much as an explanation or promise of a safer classroom environment let alone an apology from school or the child's parents -

It’s going in circles! Your school has some serious internal politics, squabbles, power struggles or whatever going on according to you Maisy, which has nothing to do with the child.

Lack of consistency isn’t helping. However, consistently isn’t going to be enough either. It’s takes a bit more than boundaries to prepare a child for adulthood, with such severe behavioural and emotional difficulties, no life skills, no social skills, demand aviodant etc.

He needs to be taught the skills needed and boundaries don’t teach skills. Is the bottom line.

Back just to say, I'm only getting exasperated because I gave 4 brief anecdotes in response to thr OP.

What started as interesting discussion became a fixation with people on child 3, repeated assumptions about a child who nobody on here knows, decisions that consistency and boundaries must be awful, pushing for information on school interventions and pushing for information on the nature of SEND assessments (after i said no assessments have shown SEND).

There is no way on this earth I would so much as discuss a child's SEND assessments out if school, let alone on a public forum.

Despite that I've done my best (without giving crucial identifying pieces of information for very obvious reasons) to explain situations where I feel lack of consistency has had a detrimental effect on a child.

Then it's been claimed that i'm after compliance.

I have said I don't teach the child, yet it's been implied that there's something wrong witj my consequences (the reality was colleagues dealt with the situation and all was in hand).

Then having explained again about inconsistency, suddenly it's fine to say inconsistency plays a part because now it's been devided that it's all clearly powrr play and unprofessional, the child should have an EHCP and basically none of the child's behaviour has anything at all to do with the child.

Mention consistency and boundariea earlier in the thread - terrible
Mention it later and give examples which highlight staff being inconsistent - totally fine but you all are squabbling and unprofessional (obv fine to say about consistency if means you can make generalised comments about a school you know nothing about. Hey that's MN).

I genuinely give up. And for the sake of making doubly sure that nobody can find any hint of familiarity in some of thr anecdotes, I'm asking MN to delete a couple of them.

I give up! That’s escalated quickly!

Maisy you really don’t seem to be able to consider any other opinion other than boundaries being the problem.

I would add you are being questioned on an Internet forum as you are one who mentioned child 3!! You cannot use child 3 as an ‘arrogant’ example and complain when questioned or challenged!

No one is ‘armchair diagnosising’ anyone! All I’ve been doing is asking you to consider other options and explaining the definition of SEN

I didn't say boundaries were the only problem. (This is EXACTLY why I've got fed up engaging on here).

I've just said I'm getting exasperated trying to explain a situation by keeping essential information (which is not for public disclosure) private.

Even when I've just explained why I'm getting exasperated it's decided that I must be stressed and angry. (Again, nd you wonder why I've found it utterly exasperating).

I'm frustrated from trying to explain a situation where I have said MULTIPLE times there needs to be flexibility but that my feelings (as someone who actually knows the situation) is that the inconsistent handling of a situation has mosy likely escalated a situation.

You cannot use child 3 as an ‘arrogant’ example and complain when questioned or challenged!
And I answered only to be told (by people who know nothing of the situation) that I must be wrong.
Oh and then the push for information, and what SEND assessments have been done for child 3.
None of that information requested is relevant to the point I was making earlier. Yet i did my best ti answer it.

All I’ve been doing is asking you to consider other options and explaining the definition of SEN
But I don't need you telling me 'other options' when i've said repeatedly that I'm not sharing all the information.
I don't need to be told the definition of SEN as someone who works with SEND day in day out.
Why this has become 'posters campaigning for a child they don't know anything about' is beyond me.

The very replies to me saying 'I'm bowing out because this entire discussion is people trying to pick apart a situation thry don't know' highlights why I've got fed up.