AIBU to think this child shouldn’t be in my son’s class?

[HicDraconis]

A boy at DS1’s primary school - P - arrived a couple of years ago having been excluded from several other local schools. He was violent and prone to angry rages if things did not go his way. One break time he jumped on DS1’s back and thumped him around the head. DS1 back kicked him off (he’s a brown tip belt in karate) and was taken to the office for observation (possible head injuries) for the afternoon. P has chased another boy through 5 classrooms and thrown a chair at him, smashed up one of the teachers’ laptops (family had to pay to replace it), that kind of thing.

This year DS1 started a new school (year 7, Intermediate, state school for what it’s worth). He sat an entrance exam which got him into the accelerated extension stream - this is a separate class from the rest of year 7 and maxed at 30 pupils.

Surprisingly, P has also been placed in this class as an extra. He can’t keep up with the standard of work, is disruptive and interferes with the ability of the other students to get on with things. When questioned, the head said he was put in that class for reasons of “strategy” - he didn’t sit the screening test but they think he’ll be easier to handle in this particular set.

The class teacher says they’re aware of his back history, that “strategies are in place and they are monitoring the situation carefully”.

When we accepted DS1’s place it was on the understanding that if he couldn’t keep up with the standard of work he’d be put into a different class.

DS1 is apprehensive about the possibility of being hit again. P has already scribbled over a piece of his artwork so far and we’re only a week into the new term. He’s also disrupted the class with bad behaviour, had various verbal warnings and one strike for verbally abusive behaviour.

AIBU to think that they’re doing P a disservice by putting him in a class where he won’t be able to keep up? Surely he’d be better looked after in one of the standard sets with a 1:1 TA (which he had at primary)? AIBU to think that if they were going to increase the class size to 31, the space should have gone to someone who narrowly missed out on the exam scores?

Children attack teachers and they can't be removed from their classes (disgraceful) Don’t be ridiculous.

Yeah, I've had that. No idea if it occurs in NZ, but far from uncommon in UK.

His behaviour needs to be managed and so far, he has not been violent in this new school so perhaps the strategy is working to some extent. It sounds like you think that children in other sets should have to suffer his disruptive behaviour instead of those in your son's class though. No child should have to put up with disruptive behaviour but that's what happens in state schools. My kids put up with it too. Your child is no more special than any other child.

It sounds like P has no business being in mainstream education at all given how violent and disruptive he is.

You have no basis to make this judgement. You can't possibly know the entire situation, including the level of support needed vs level of support provided, and so on.

I also am surprised (although I shouldn't be,I suppose) that people assume SEN = lower set or assume that he can't keep up with the higher set. My ds1 was consistently top of his class, to the point where they were having to provide higher level work for him in primary school, yet he had a fulltime 1:1 due to his SEN. And that's factoring in that he couldn't cope with being in the classroom for long periods of time so he was taken out of class regularly. Imagine his progress if he'd been in a classroom that was more suited to his needs! (which he is now, as we home ed)

“Actually, there will probably be a handful of children in the majority of ordinary classes across schools in the UK, whose behaviour impinges on the learning of their peers. (The exceptions are fee paying schools.)

Perhaps those of you who are accusing the OP of this or that, have children yourselves who are not that well behaved?”

What a ridiculous fucking statement to make!

I have a child with ASD, he is exceptional well behaved and has a very high IQ, very quiet and shy.

He has had to leave 3 mainstream (fee paying too!) due to the behaviour of his NT peers and being severely bullied.

Believe it not the majority of bullying comes from NT kids, not kids with SN’s. SN kids are usually on the receiving end of ‘disruptive’ behaviour.

that people assume SEN = lower set

Or SEN = poor behaviour

Neither are linked in

Or poor behaviour = shit home life.

Or more commonly SEN = shit parenting.

I agree you should focus on your son. Is he confident that his teacher will take his worries seriously? Your DS is obviously clever so can you explain to him without going into details that this child doesn’t live with his mum and dad, and maybe sometimes this makes him upset and angry. If he can see that this boy needs sympathy for not having his parents at home, maybe that will make you son feel less scared of him and more able to understand why he behaves badly. I actually think that this boy is unlikely to target your son physically given that your son was able to fight him off last time. I know it’s awful, but it sounds like your son is resilient and clever and he will be ok.

GingerIvy - my basis for saying it is the fact that there have already been multiple exclusions of the same child from other mainstream schools and the fact that we know there have been at least two significant incidents of violence from him to date (those described in the original post). That to my mind is enough. I wouldn't want this kid in the same class as my child either!

I don't know the level of support needed but I do know that the other 30 kids in that class are entitled to be safe at school and I would share the OP's concerns that they aren't due to the presence of this child. The needs/rights of this one child don't trump the needs/rights of the rest of the class, or at least they shouldn't anyway.

It is entirely possible incidentally that the violent kid has no SEN issues and is just a nasty piece of work. But that obviously doesn't fit the mumsnet (particularly AIBU) narrative whereby the default assumption appears to be that whenever there is a badly behaved kid, they must have SEN or MH issues and they must be prioritised and protected at all costs, and anyone who suggests to the contrary is ignorant and intolerant etc etc.

As another poster has said above, people are being way too harsh to the OP here...those of you laying in to her, how would YOU feel about YOUR child being made to share a class with another pupil who had seriously assaulted them previously? She is perfectly within her rights to be concerned, I'd go so far as to say that to not be concerned in the circumstances would be negligent!

All of the talk of pitchforks and witch hunts is just ridiculous. We are talking about a concerned parent who is worried about her child sharing a class with a child with a history of violence, including violence specifically towards her son. Get a grip and get off your high horses people and try showing @HicDraconis a bit of empathy!

Mumsnet - by parents for parents eh

Zzzzz how can it be disablist shit when we don't even know that the kid in question has a disability!? What a ludicrous thing to say....

There's not embracing children who are harder to live with and harder to help, and not wanting your child to get repeatedly punched in the head for a second time by someone who has done it before. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Inclusion and inclusive education means embracing the children who are harder to live and harder to help

Of coarse - but nobody should suffer at the hands of these children, the class should also feel happy and confident to go to school - a known violent child needs suppprt and he isn't getting any

I really don’t think there is much that can be done to be honest . There is not enough money to get this Child the support he needs . All you can do is reassure your son and keep a very very close eye and document everything . I am hugely sympathetic to both your son and to this clearly disturbed child . Just keep a close eye and keep your son in open communication with you . If his behaviour gets worse they will have to rethink this strategy

I think you're on the right track now, focus on what affects your son's education and mental health. But what I would be saying to the school is that they should not be working together in pairs because of the recent attack.

I think the OP has been given empathy, I haven’t seen anyone on here say violence is acceptable.

Most, if not all, have been saying complain and make sure steps are taken to prevent it from happening. However, not by complaining about whether the boy should be in the top set, or shouldn’t be in mainstream or might have terrible parents etc, etc

I’ve had lots of empathy and support, and some gentle pointing out of reality. I don’t think anyone’s been harsh (if they have been then I apologise because it went over my head! I get much harsher emails from my colleagues!)

Had to have a quiet giggle at “do you argue with your doctor” though - all the time, but that’s because I am one ;) part of this whole thing is likely down to my type A need to be in control of everything. I will relax and let my son handle himself. And be there in the background in case.

OP being all receptive and reasonable... Not really traditional on AIBU threads y'know OP but who knows, it might catch on

Fair play to you @HicDraconis - I think both your handling of this situation and your response to this thread has been brilliant.

Personally in your shoes I'd have been seriously pissed off by the poster who states you were behaving "appallingly, prying into this kid's life to a frankly creepy extent" and telling you if he has been excluded from previous schools is none of your business and "who the hell do you think you are?", when the truth of the matter is that you made those enquiries because you wanted to assess the extent of the ongoing risk this other child posed to yours after he'd assaulted your son. That particular poster I think has behaved quite appallingly herself towards you in this thread, been unnecessarily arsey and shown zero empathy towards you. Glad that overall you've found the responses on the thread helpful though. X

Ahungrymum, It’s called sensitive data and should be treated as such. The OP has every right to demand that her son is kept safe at school and take steps to ensure this happens.

She does not have any right to know personal data about ANY child!

I think the OP has taken this on board.

She doesn't have a right to that information AHungryMum and in the UK she wouldn't be told it. That is fact. If a school did give that information out they are breaking the law.

Not really the point of the thread, but here in the UK you’re not allowed to use martial arts skills outside of classes and competitions.

One of DS’s classmates was thrown out of his club for that and he was competing at a high level.

It would be a shame if the same happened to your DS, especially if karate has had such a beneficial effect on his resilience.

Shedmicehugh and spikeyball I hear what you're saying and from a legal perspective I don't disagree, but my point was that OP's reasons for wanting to know that information were not malicious, and as such I feel the "your behaviour is appalling....who the hell do you think you are?" comments were unnecessary. She made those enquiries wanting to know what level of ongoing risk the violent kid presented to her son (in any event, it sounds like some of the personal information in question has come to her knowledge not as a result of her making enquiries but as a result of the information being volunteered to her, or simply being common knowledge).

That being the case, regardless of the data protection restrictions limiting the school's powers to reveal such information to her, it is in my view unnecessari,y harsh that she has been accused of with hunting, and "prying into this child to a frankly creepy extent" when all she was doing was trying to find out how much of a risk the violent child posed to her own child.

In my job I sometimes receive requests for information that I cannot give out due to data protection laws (not saying any more than that...too outing!) and I often feel significant sympathy towards those making the enquiries. I can't help them because the law won't let me, but they aren't making the enquiries out of any malice and they wouldn't deserve to be pilloried for making the requests. So you don't need to explain the concept of data protection to me, I'm fully familiar with it! :)

There are a few dc like this in dd school. In one class, lots of violent, disruptive behaviour.
It's never ever been handled well by the school, most parents have been white with the rage over the perceived lack of action about it, so many dc been hit, kicked etc the head has strange attitude to it.

I don't think for one second the school has met those boys needs.

They need a special school but I am not sure they have learning disabilities... But they definitely need To be setting better suited to thier needs. One boy has loving, enriched family.. No poverty or any issues at all.. Literally embraced by loving family and he is the worst, another one dies have a troubled family..

The use of martial arts outside of competitions and classes depends on the context. If you use the techniques to defend yourself you are subject to the same rules of self-defence/provocation as any other case.

As a point neither myself nor half parents in dd year trust our school to handle the children. One child was physically marked by one of the boys and the mum queried the head in causal chat whether she herself should let the boys parents know and she said no don't trouble I'll make sure he he misses break tomorrow.