To think the demographics of families using Grammar schools, are the ones that used private schools in the 80s and 90s.

[mountford100]

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's).

This is a culture and wealth difference that has developed over the last 30 years or so . I can remember my father having an aforementioned Bmw 7 Series.

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school and was equal to what my friends families with children at private schools had.

It seems today that £60k cars are the norm of grammar schools and £150k cars are normal at private schools.

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.

30 years ago were able to attend Private schools because their mother took a part time job up to pay the fees.

This is no longer available !

I could have put money on you being a horsey woman BertrandRusell.

It really depends where you are, doesn't it?

Where we live, there are a few SS Grammar schools, which take

“I could have put money on you being a horsey woman, Bertrandrussell”
You should have done, you could have made back the money you lost when you tried to guess my former profession on a previous thread. Then you could have used it for hypnotherapy or something to cure your bizarre fascination with my personal life!

My children go to private school. 150k isnt much less than our house is worth. No idea how much my cars worth but I suspect when I fill it up it doubles in value :)

“The grammars have a policy of taking one form's equivalent of PP pupils, and there is a lower pass mark for those eligible.”

Really? That’s interesting. Where’s that?

Walking cliché

Bit we don't have grammar schools. I suspect the whole issue is very different

Oh, Francine. One day I’ll tell you what I used to do for a living. It will blow your mind!

It was possible up until the mid to late 90s for average earning families to make “sacrifices” in order to send children to private schools. Smaller private day school fees in the mid to late 90s were often around £5000 per year (ie around £1700 per term). It was just about possible for somebody on the average wage to fund that by taking on a second job (or both parents working), not having any holidays or new cars, and getting some assistance from bursaries (which might mean a 50% discount for an average earner).

My parents were teachers, which was a fairly normal profession for parents at my school. I don’t even recall many lawyers or high earning professionals, but there were lots of public sector workers and quite a few small shopkeepers.

I am not sure that is possible any more, and many of the more “normal” private schools seem to have disappeared. The fees now are so high that it is only families who are already on a high income (or particularly lucky in having a small mortgage etc) who can afford them.

I’m not yet having to make a decision about where to send my DCs, and I would prefer state education (I don’t like academic hothouses and don’t want them to be surrounded only by wealthy children). But I really wish there were more “normal” private day school options like there used to be. We are atheists and there is a huge divide between the religious state schools and everywhere else in my area. I would just love to have some choice in schools, particularly if my children ended up being really unhappy somewhere, which we won’t have at all in the state sector simply because we are not religious!

Bertrand, I've pmed you. Um, I may have accidentally reported your post too, whilst attempting that!

We looked at private school fees since DH was privately educated. His father was a university lecturer and his mother didn't really work (bit of PT charity work). They put 3 kids through a well known Scottish private school. DH and I both work FT in professional/managerial roles in new technology fields, and yet we'd lose an entire salary to school fees if we did the same (thankfully the private schools round here are not as academically excellent as the state school so we're paying for a large mortgage instead). There is no way someone doing FILs job now could afford to send their 3 kids to private school (nor would they be able to afford PILs house!).

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.
It may be part of the explanation but you are looking at a small picture. There are 164 grammar schools out of more than 5,000 secondary schools in England.

We are outside London/SE and the majority of the parents at DS's school are doctors, accountants, teachers. No grammar option. Comprehensives with dire results.

This calculator suggests that what we pay for DS in fees is almost equivalent to what my parents paid for my brother 35 years ago at the same school.

I depends entirely on where you live. In my area the cars outside the local comprehensive are much more expensive than the ones at the local grammar. You don't have to be rich for your children to go to a grammar school. There is no catchment area and therefore inflated houseprices as outside good comprehensives. Private tuition probably costs about £1,000 but you don't have to do that as you can just buy practice papers. The grammar parents are often professionals but they don't tend to be particularly high earners (.e.g teachers, university lecturers). The more well-off send their children to private schools.

When DS started in reception circa 2007, the fees were £3k per term. Now in Year 10, they are £7,500 per term. Two DS attend a selective co-ed in West London where at least 20% are on full or part bursaries. You don't see the cars because pupils come in by tube / bus. There is a huge diversity in wealth in the school and it's impossible to generalise about how families pay the fees.

At the prep our other DC attend, I would say the wealth is far more visible and it's a daily cavalcade of mums in Range Rovers at pick-up. Lots of expats and very high earning DHs - bankers, lawyers, entrepreneurs, diplomats - though you never see them at pick up. DH has a Ferrari, but the DC won't let him come anywhere near the school in it because they find it too embarrassing.

I do agree that it's much more difficult for young families now to access independent schools. Not only that, but house prices in this part of London have almost doubled in the last ten years. You need to be earning hundreds of thousands to consider putting two children through the independent system in this area, or you have a wealthy family who put some money aside for this. There are no grammar schools, unless you go out as far as Kingston. Even if you can pay for independent schools, the odds of a place in the selectives are 1 in 10. Even in the so-called more "rounded" schools, the odds of a place are 1 in 4. Money just gives you a shot at applying, but its by no means a guarantee of a place anywhere.

OP you are imo largely right, although as this thread shows, there are plenty of kids out there who don't have rich parents, don't have expensive tutors, and still pass the 11+ and get into grammar schools, and that's the main reason I personally would oppose the abolition of grammar schools, as I don't see why those kids should be deprived that opportunity....

I've got one dc year 9 at local secondary school and one dc year 7 at a grammer school that is ranked 2nd in the country. I drive a ford focus dh a ford mondeo and I'm a nursery nurse and hubby is medically retired.

I think you are talking absolute rubbish maybe its the fact that more parents want the best for their children and are willing to allow them to follow their dreams what ever their background is. Instead of thinking that grammer school/private school education is only for the elite who can afford it.

I won a scholarship to grammar school, we didn't have a car so not sure how we fit into this mold.

A hungry mum we don't have grammar schools up here though and so all children in the region are deprived of he opportunity

ROFL @ "deprived of the opportunity"

Also deprived of the opportunity of attending a failing sec modern, which is where the other 75% of kids in fully grammar areas are allocated

My DD is at grammar school in Sutton, Surrey. They have recently changed admissions to include 30 places for PP girls and their scores are averaged for a pass mark separately from the rest which I assume may be fairer to families who could not afford tutoring. Totally agree a car is a silly way to judge wealth. Majority of people who I know that are wealthier than average drive run if the mill cars and wouldn’t feel the need to use a car to advertise their wealth.

What a sweeping generalisation.There are very good secondary moderns too. I'll wager there are plenty of parents with kids in some areas away from the SE who'd prefer some secondary moderns to the comps they're in. Many areas with grammars don't even notice they're there.

Most children catch a bus or walk to our grammar schools - not many parent cars in sight.

Some cars do show 'wealth' for example to lease a £150k car over 3 years requires a £30k deposit and minimum payments of £1600 a month !

However, the vast majority of these types of cars are bought (few people use them as company cars now because the tax on them is prohibitive ) Secondly anyone owning a £150k car is almost 100% likely to own at least two more worth at least £50-70k a piece.

I argue £30k cars are likely to be Company or leased and cannot be used to judge someones wealth .

However, the aforementioned £100k plus cars do require wealth or extremely high incomes to buy and maintain !

I’m really pleased to hear that some grammar schools are adjusting the pass mark to level the playing field-although I do wonder how they calculate it. I only knew about some schools who had modified their admissions procedure so that any child on PP got a place before they started the distance from the school criterion. But they still would have had to get the same marks in the test as non PP children.

Does anyone know how the lower pass mark thing works?

Does anyone know how the lower pass mark thing works?

In my area, they allocate a certain proportion of places to people on PP (or on it within the last few years). They give those places to the people on PP with the highest marks. The mark to get in is a bit lower than the mark other children are required to get.