Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What's with all these transgender threads?!

630 replies

pancakequeenisheretosaveyou · 14/02/2018 05:43

No less than 7 on my active threads?? Is it just me who in real life hasn't encountered any transgender people?? And coming from the professional background that I'm in, I see a pretty varied side of life Confused

Am I missing out on something here??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 15/02/2018 00:21

@DarthNigel you didn't look at This Never Happens on FB like I suggested did you?

In case you're not on FB, or you can't be bothered to look, try this link/

Ereshkigal · 15/02/2018 00:23

At the moment, the risk to potential offenders is increased if they choose to target victims in sex segregated spaces. Their presence is unusual enough in those spaces to be noted and challenged. Yes, it's based on appearance, and so is not always accurate, but it is a crime prevention method designed to reduce the number of offences.

Removing the segregation reduces the likelihood of offenders of being considered "out of place" and therefore reduces the risk of their being challenged.

Excellent point.

DreamyMcDreamy · 15/02/2018 00:33

@DarthNigel you didn't look at This Never Happens on FB like I suggested did you?

Not DarthNigel but don't think I dare.

DreamyMcDreamy · 15/02/2018 00:36

(Cis means not trans)

Yep,got that and on learning what that means a few weeks ago was my wake up and WTF moment.
I never realised how strongly I felt about being just a woman until you try telling me I'm not one and that I'm a cis one! Smile

DreamyMcDreamy · 15/02/2018 00:40

(But set up a secret fb group to get women who disagreed with him that 'biology is irrelevant' ousted from the party)

Surely stuff like that is MORE reason for MN to be able to hold an actual debate and not a verbal shut down/oust/block like most other places - it's scary that they are trying to do that.
Biology is not irrelevant,it's fucking fact!! To shout TERF or bigot and/or block beggars belief really.

Datun · 15/02/2018 00:55

DarthNigel

Can I just address your last post?

Firstly, thanks for giving it some thought. It's frustrating when people have a knee-jerk reaction, without thinking anything through. So I'm grateful that you have.

I'm worried that this man is following me because he means me harm'

This is something that is said a lot. Understandably.

But there are several problems with it. First of all, predators do not come with a label, as we all know. There is no way to tell if someone is going to harm you, if they don't want you to know beforehand.

Secondly, a man has to do very little to make a woman feel uncomfortable. Intimidation is simple with the flick of an eye, a concentrated look or a smirk. 'He's looking at me funny' will get you nowhere. He'll have every right to look, smirk, anything. Short of attack.

Furthermore, I know full well, for instance, that my DH wouldn't dream of going in to the ladies loo. He would know that the women would feel uncomfortable. As would most decent men.

So someone who is prepared to ignore (or enjoy) a woman's discomfort, has already breached the privacy principle. His insistence on entry is already a red flag.

In your average night club an obvious man walking into a crowed women's toilet and proclaiming they could do so because they were a woman would be laughed out of there

No, they wouldn't. Because he would have every right to be there. And you would be committing a hate crime, or a hate incident. That's what self ID means. You have no choice.

I agree, to start with, people will think wtf? But that will very quickly stop when women are told to stfu because it's the law.

Recently Travis Alabanza, for instance. A man who doesn't even claim to be a transwoman, but a trans femme person, insisted on using the womans' changing room at top shop. His best friend calls little girls kinky and deviant. Travis, himself, identifies as a 15-year-old girl on nights out. When Topshop demurred, he took to Twitter in a fury and make them change their policy. He was utterly determined to change where he wanted to, whilst knowing full well it was difficult for the women. (He was told there were girls in their underwear in there).

I'm sure we all like to believe that, men, in general, are decent. Which most are. But for the ones who aren't, this is a gift. This isn't really about trans people at all. This is a dream for every single predator, bully, paedophile, flasher, voyeur in the country.

And don't forget, that cross dressing fetishists, according to Stonewall, are transgender now.

So men who fetishise womanhood, and absolutely get a sexual kick out of their presence in women's bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms will be at the forefront of this.

(Are at the forefront of this. I have yet to see a trans-activist who is like the very friendly transwomen on the feminist boards, struggling with gender dysphoria. Who incidentally, are horrified at what is being proposed in their name and by whom).

At the moment, to be legally considered a woman, you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, have lived as a woman for two years, and be over 18. The move to self ID, which has cross-party support, eliminates all three criteria.

No diagnosis, no modification of any kind to clothing or appearance. Your DH could do it tomorrow.

It's social engineering on a mammoth scale. Making the terms men and women legally interchangeable.

This doesn't really affect men. There are no transmen clamouring to get into men's prisons, beating men at sport, or filming themselves peeing sitting down in the gents and uploading it to Twitter.

Interestingly, despite Parliament wanting to force women to accept men as women, it doesn't work the other way around.

The law of Primogeniture is exempt.

A woman cannot identify as a man to inherit a title and take her seat in the House of Lords over her younger brother.

Because, sometimes, woman does mean something. When it might disadvantage a man.

Nibledbyducks · 15/02/2018 00:56

So as I understand it, 80% of teens who consider themseleves trans go on to decide they are in fact not trans. If you take 10 trans teens, do you give all of them medication that will make them permanatly infertile to cater to the 2 who will actually require it? or do you mitigate the reported, (but highly debatable), 40% risk of attempted suicide in other ways in order to preserve the feritility of the 8, and allow the 2 to undergo a full medical transition when appropriate? in terms of science and statisctics it's a no brainer, but mant trans activists would say otherwise. Some would perhaps say that the 40% figure is worth risking the permanent alteration of 80% of teens who will change their minds, I really don't.

How do we respond to a statistic that 60% of autistic female teens consider themselves trans?

How are puberty blockers that have potentially crippling effects on the skeletal system considered safe for transition, but so very dangerous when prescribed due to precosious puberty?

Something doesn't add up...

Esker · 15/02/2018 02:49

Just wanted to follow the thread. Like others I've read, there are useful reference points for me to revisit when I find myself needing to explain in rl to the uninitiated why I have concerns about self ID, and that no, that does not make me 'transphobic'.

DarthNigel · 15/02/2018 06:01

I did Dreamy. Horrible stuff. But then if I read certain other Facebook pages I Would strongly believe that Britain Is being taken over by Daesh and we should all be joining the EDF.(I'm not comparing the two but making the point that I dont take Facebook as a totally reliable source in terms of delivering statistics and balanced pictures of any given situation).
And as I've said I think there will be some extremely nasty individuals that exploit this. And there on that page are some examples. My point is that without self ID would they still have attempted to harm and subjugate women, but would have had to find some other way to do it? Or did the advent of unisex bathrooms in Target or wherever create more of these monsters? I'm not sure and Of course you can't prove a negative.

TheGoldenBowl · 15/02/2018 06:29

That's so unlike you

Francine I don't get what your problem is (though now that I see what your stance on transactivism is, your feelings about feminism make a lot more sense).

This isn't a joke. You love pointing out where you feel people's intelligence is being doubted... but you don't make any actual points to counter the worries about self ID.

Would it be possible for you to say whether you think it's ok that:

-any man will be able to enter any women's space whenever he wants
-male-bodied athletes can compete against and injure female athletes with impunity (this already happens)
-women's sport will no longer exist
-children are pushed into taking horrendous 'puberty blockers' because they might be trans, thus ruining their health and sexuality.

Please answer Francine - do you think all those things are ok?
Some of them are already happening. Some will happen if the bill goes through.

So, you see, that's why I made my comment; the naysayers must either not care (i.e. hate wome) or not understand. Is there a third possibility?

FrancinePefko · 15/02/2018 07:05

The third possibility is that it the whole issue is complex and certainly not as black and white as either Penis Exclusionary Radical Feminists or Trans Rights Activists make out. It certainly doesn't help to hurl insults at each other. This is what puts the vast majority of moderate people off. I certainly think it is one of the things that is damaging the image of feminism.

TheGoldenBowl · 15/02/2018 07:12

So, again, no actual points to make Francine

You won't answer my straightforward questions (no prizes for guessing why).

But will you explain what's not black and white about a bill that will state that any man can declare himself a woman and elbow his way into women's sport, women's shortlists etc? Do you understand that this is what is being proposed?

Patodp · 15/02/2018 07:16

My point is that without self ID would they still have attempted to harm and subjugate women, but would have had to find some other way to do it

They likely already have found other ways to harass intimidate and assault women. So on top of say, 3 crimes they have already committed, there is one more victim thanks to self-ID.

Take the obvious example of prisons. (In Australia there is currently an investigation into exactly how many women a TIM in a women's prison raped and got pregnant because there are so many).

A recent study revealed that 50% of Transgender inmates had committed sexual crimes against women. There are currently 14000 (intact) TIMs in male prisons in the UK who would have to be housed in the female prisons under self-ID (where are yet they are not kept seperate because of underfunding).

Self ID would overnight provide these TIMs, with a penchant for vulnerable women, access to hundreds of new victims. Not to mention the complications of pregnancy as a result.

Self ID wouldn't create new sex offenders out of men who are not inclined to offend, that's not the point. It increases the number of victims because of increased opportunity and decreased risk for the offender.

Patodp · 15/02/2018 07:18

*14000 is rather a lot!
*1400

FrancinePefko · 15/02/2018 07:59

Okay I'll have a go
any man will be able to enter any women's space whenever he wants

This is true today, if a man is determined enough.

male-bodied athletes can compete against and injure female athletes with impunity (this already happens)
Sports bodies will have to develop safe guards to enure that competition is fair (as they do now with different kinds of athletes competing in the paralympics.

women's sport will no longer exist
Exaggeration.

children are pushed into taking horrendous 'puberty blockers' because they might be trans, thus ruining their health and sexuality.
If any child was being "pushed" into taking any kind of medication then that would constitute highly unethical behaviour from both their clinician and their legal guardians. If it is happening today, people should be prosecuted.

So, you see, that's why I made my comment; the naysayers must either not care (i.e. hate wome)
Not true.

or not understand
It is possible that some people have a different understanding to you.

Telling people they are "thick" louder and louder, again and again is what led to the Brexit victory and the election of Trump.

Patodp · 15/02/2018 08:19

*any man will be able to enter any women's space whenever he wants

This is true today, if a man is determined enough*

Not yet true for women's refuges, not yet women's prisons, not yet women's sport (unless transitioned), not yet true for most women's swim classes/yoga/tai chi whatever..... self ID removes the need fir any transition at all which is currently a working gatekeeper for many examples.

If any child was being "pushed" into taking any kind of medication then that would constitute highly unethical behaviour from both their clinician and their legal guardians. If it is happening today, people should be prosecuted

From Transgendertrend:
^Under the age of 16 the only medical treatment that is recommended by the NHS for children struggling with issues of gender identity are PUBERTY BLOCKERS.

The drugs used are a class of synthetic gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues. By acting on the pituitary gland, these puberty blockers prevent the release of chemical signals which stimulate the production of estrogen and testosterone, halting the changes of puberty caused by these sex hormones.

Obtaining puberty blockers via the NHS can only be done for children with gender issues by the children’s Gender Identity Development service (GIDS). The main clinic is in London at the Tavistock and Portmann Clinic and there is a satellite clinic now in Leeds. To date GIDS has treated 800 children with puberty blockers, with about 230 of these children under the age of 14, the youngest child being 10 years old. The earliest these drugs can be used is at Tanner stage 1 of puberty.^

Sports bodies will have to develop safe guards to enure that competition is fair (as they do now with different kinds of athletes competing in the paralympics.

I agree totally with you and I think in Germany they are doing this now, but us in the Anglosphere are showing no signs while the dogma "transwomen are women* prevails.

Sorry if someone called someone thick. Not nice.

Patodp · 15/02/2018 08:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 15/02/2018 08:43

FrancinePefko

^Okay I'll have a go
any man will be able to enter any women's space whenever he wants^

This is true today, if a man is determined enough.

But he can't stay there. Because protocols find it unacceptable.

He can be in your locker room during toddler swim, taking a long time to get undressed, or dressed, moisturising his legs, and glancing up every now and then. But he's woman. He has every right. You know he's a perv, he knows he's a perv, the leisure centre knows he's a perv. But the law says he isn't.

Without a GRC, no man can gain automatic access to a female prison, however 'determined'. With a GRC they can. Automatically.

male-bodied athletes can compete against and injure female athletes with impunity (this already happens)

Sports bodies will have to develop safe guards to enure that competition is fair (as they do now with different kinds of athletes competing in the paralympics.

It's nice that you think sports bodies will have to do something. At the moment, the only determinent is testosterone. With a Tranwoman's levels being on the lower end of males and at a level that virtue no woman on the planet can reach. (Normal Male Range : 9 – 38 nmol/L, Normal Female Range : 0.5 – 2.4 nmol/L). Hence all the men beating women in sport, and no transmen beating men.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Sport&submit=Search

women's sport will no longer exist

Exaggeration.

No. It isn't. So far today, it means exactly that. You are, I think, envisaging a world where this can't happen. It is happening. Perhaps you think it will be stopped. Well welcome aboard, let's try.

children are pushed into taking horrendous 'puberty blockers' because they might be trans, thus ruining their health and sexuality.

If any child was being "pushed" into taking any kind of medication then that would constitute highly unethical behaviour from both their clinician and their legal guardians. If it is happening today, people should be prosecuted.

I completely agree. Dr Webberley in Wales who runs a private clinic and sterilised a 12-year-old, has been suspended. However, she is on TV, being sought for her views.

Private clinics are not bound by the same rules. Online medication is freely available.

The nature of hormone blockers means they have to be given at the onset of puberty. That means around age 11. Statistically children who take all blockers, are 100% likely to start cross sex hormones.

Puberty blockers will prevent the development of genitalia. Cross-sex hormones will give you the secondary sexual characteristics of either facial hair, a low voice (girls), or a more curvy figure, breasts (boys). But the genitals stay prepubescent.

All the adults online who encourage children to do this, have developed genitalia, whether they have them altered or not. Children don't. Their sexual function is compromised. They will be on lifelong medication and sterile.

Research into gender dysphoria is treated with cries of transphobia. Research into detransition has been halted due to cries of transphobia (see James Caspian of Bath spa University who has started a thread here in FWR to help get funding for research as he has been told it is politically incorrect).

Children who don't take hormone blockers are 80% likely to become reconciled to their natal six.

Of the children who do, 99% go onto cross-sex hormones. Do you think that a100% hit rate sounds plausible? Given detransitioners or 'trans regret'?

No one is denying that gender dysphoria in children is dreadful. But when 2000 children a month are showing up at gender clinics, and 1200 of them getting sent home again, there are an awful lot of confused children around.

When I googled this last year, only 37 children, out of 2000, were considered gender dysphoric. Questioning this, will get you fired.

It is possible that some people have a different understanding to you.

Indeed it is.

I certainly think it is one of the things that is damaging the image of feminism.

It is, if your definition of feminism is don't give a fuck about women and children, and centre men at all costs.

Datun · 15/02/2018 08:48

To date GIDS has treated 800 children with puberty blockers,

Ah Patodp. That's cleared something up for me. I was informed that it was 800 in one year! That makes far more sense. As I thought it was about 30 or 40.

Unfortunately, it means that there are far more children, than I stated, who are confused.

Or their parents Think they are trans-. Because liking toys of the opposite sex is making parents think that.

TheGoldenBowl · 15/02/2018 09:32

I really hope you read some of the explanations above Francine

For the record, I didn't call you or anyone else "thick" - I was considering, with reference to no particular individual, why people would deny facts- whether it's because they are dangerous, hateful people or whether they are simpy incapable of understanding. I did use the term "thick" for the latter. I'm sorry if that offends you - but it's surely just common sense? And I'm not, if I'm honest, too worried about the finer feelings of people who want to throw women under the bus.

I hope that you can understand that your denial of the points I raised does not stand up to scrutiny. These things, that you say won't happen, are already happening , as others have carefully illustrated.

It's not good enough to state vaguely that "it's complex" and people have a "different understanding". It's literally impossible to have a "different understanding" of an objective fact like "men will have an actual legal right to be in women's spaces."

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/02/2018 09:32

But even here on mumsnet it’s only been relatively recently as far as I’m aware that the opposition has started to gather pace, too little too late however, like protesting about a property development in your area that has already been built

Would not argue with this

But seriously...some of this stuff is insane, who on earth would have thought that biology would be turned on its head, that basic manners would be turned into the English language being a hate crime

That some men would take advantage of a minority group to lie and cheat...oh wait,

No i knew that one

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/02/2018 09:34

And before i get any comments by minority group i mean transgender people

And probably children now i think about it

Thisusernamethingistricky · 15/02/2018 09:44

Francine thank you for actually engaging rather than just plopping and running!

any man will be able to enter any women's space whenever he wants

This is true today, if a man is determined enough.

Well firstly it's not really true. No man can enter a women's prison if he is determined enough (unless he 'identifies as a woman of course) and the men who work there will have at least been subject to heavy safeguarding checks.

Men cannot go into refuges or rape crisis centres either, the police would be called. Now obviously this applies to many women as well who shouldn't be there, but under self id, men would possibly get access to these places, access to very vulnerable women.

If a man went into a woman's toilet, the women would at present, possibly be able to say' um, excuse me', particularly if there were a few of them. It would be perfectly acceptable to challenge them and men know this. And if they know they will be challenged they are less likely to do it in the first place, it's a deterrent. Under self id: no challenge will be allowed and certain people will take advantage.

And before you say 'but how often will that really happen'.... Think about how often you hear about men raping, murdering women, voyeurs, flashers, men who have gained access to kids by becoming sports coaches, priests, doctors. Think about the lengths some of those men went to to be able to carry out their crimes. Think about in films when they show teenage boys peeping through holes into girls changing rooms, as if it's just normal behaviour. There will be no gatekeeping anymore, any man can just go anywhere that up until now has been sex segregated. Men don't have to be doing something illegal to be intimidating or make a woman feel uncomfortable.

If you believe that any man can currently go into any woman's space, then why bother with sex segregation at all?

male-bodied athletes can compete against and injure female athletes with impunity (this already HAPPENS)

Sports bodies will have to develop safe guards to enure that competition is fair (as they do now with different kinds of athletes competing in the paralympics.

Even if sports bodies did come up with parameters for hormones (although I think the limit for testosterone in trans women is 10 and most women are 2 - 3, sorry I don't know the units!), how would they account for the extra height, leg length, arm length, hand span, foot span, lung capacity, and general muscle structure of a male bodied person who has been through male puberty? And why should women's sports suddenly be subject to loads of categories anyway, when we already have perfectly adequate categories for male and female bodied people?

women's sport will no longer exist

Exaggeration.

Maybe. But think about how difficult it was, and still is, to get girls into sport in the first place. Now think how much more difficult it will be if girls at school have to compete against boys who are bigger and stronger than them? Plus, will there be safeguards and parameters at grass roots level for male bodied sports people in women's sporting categories, or just at the top?

children are pushed into taking horrendous 'puberty blockers' because they might be trans, thus ruining their health and sexuality.

If any child was being "pushed" into taking any kind of medication then that would constitute highly unethical behaviour from both their clinician and their legal guardians. If it is happening today, people should be prosecuted.

I suppose some of this depends on whether you think children of 11, 12, 13, 14 are actually capable of making life changing decisions like this in the first place. Because if they are not (and as a society we deem these children as too young to make these decisions, hence the age of consent) then any administration of such drugs is being pushed by adults.

What is your view on this story, promoted by The Guardian as a positive story?

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/10/raising-a-non-binary-child-as-long-as-one-of-the-side-effects-wasnt-death-it-was-the-right-way

Caleb first came out as a lesbian, then decided they were a boy and was put on puberty blockers and testosterone at 14, then a mere 3 months later, changed their mind and decided instead they were non binary so came off the testosterone and now at 16 they were in a sort of puberty blocked limbo whilst they decide 'the next step'. As I said, this messing around with the endocrine system of children, which could cause permanent side effects, is being promoted by the Guardian as a positive.

I do agree with what you say about insulting people who simply disagree with you, and that calling people 'thick' was what led to Trump and Brexit!

bambambini · 15/02/2018 09:47

I pity the woman who might end up sharing a cell and showers with this woman. What would it actually take for someone who supports self id and every TW (and transgirl) having unlimited access to EVERY female area - to start having any doubts.

What's with all these transgender threads?!
picklemepopcorn · 15/02/2018 09:48

With regards to sport, I'm not into participating or watching, however to me the issue is self evident.

No matter how few TIMs enter a women's sport, the peak of that sport stops being achievable by women. Records will be broken, and be unachievable by women. Sports will become less comfortable and some actively dangerous, as women will be required to share intimate spaces with team mates or endure contact sport with someone they can't hope to resist.

As a young woman, would I bother training and entering a sport where TIMs were competing? No. Why on earth would I?

So women set up an alternative sports league for natal women, let's say 'natal women's olympics' as it needs to be distinguished from 'women's sport' as women's sports are dominated by TIMs.

Then TIMS feel excluded from natal women's olympics, because they feel just like natal women.....

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.