Calling out to nurses and student nurses

[Livinglifepeachy]

Hey

I am due to start a nursing degree end of this month but I can't stop feeling like nurses are being taken for a mug and cheap labourers to put it bluntly. Here are the reasons why...

We have to pay over 9k per year in tuition fees and we don't get to choose our placements at the NHS. We don't get paid to be on placement yet apprentices do. Our placement equals to 2700hrs in three years. From what I have heard from second year nurses and third year nurses is that whilst your on placement your mentor usually doesn't have a lot of time for you. We can't actually hold a non flexible jobs because placements can be any day of the week so only when you are not on placement you can achieve to work weekends.

Can someone please share your thoughts on this matter are my feelings justifiable or is there something I have missed?

Am sorry I don't mean to offend anyone I am just becoming a bit defensive when I keep hearing posters say you lack commitment or don't want to really do nursing when I actually do really want to

Isn’t that sort of what you’re saying about nurses who have a bursary though!?

i did my nurse training in the early 90s we were one of the first sets of students to do the diploma or project 2000 as it was known then we got a bursery which was far less then the student nurses a few years previously that got paid a wage i really feel for student nurses these days , regharding the nurse apprentiship will they be registred nurses on qualifying ? or are they going back to the two tier of nursing that they abolished in the 90,s [enrolled and registered nurses]/?

My understanding of the Nursing apprenticeship will be that they will be band 4.

It's a shorter course too about 18 months.

This is the prices of blairs education education. Now we see who is paying.
Years ago people left school at 16 and did the jobs that now graduates take. It's so wrong.

The government has a factsheet about nurse apprenticeship www.gov.uk/government/publications/nursing-degree-apprenticeships-factsheet/nursing-degree-apprenticeship-factsheet

I don't think there is any difference to a normal nurse degree just that the employer pays instead of the student. You still are registered.

All of nursing education is up in the air now an mentoring is changing with third year students doing much of the training of the first years.
The lack of bursary means that many students applying are now 18 year olds not a mixture as it has been.This also means that there will need to be more emotional support for students (at 18 this can be a very stressful environment).
There is a massive nursing shortage yet as a trained nurse you are expected to manage an unmanageable workload,masses of paperwork and teach a student to an adequate level,from a students point of view very hit and miss.The trained staff will have more students on a ward than at present and the nursing apprentices as well(I'm not sure if you can progress to a degree from there yet but something to her in mind).
As you already an HCA you can do bank work but because you do not burn out.
The drop out rate for student nurses is a massive concern as are the amount who do not take a post once qualified and the drop out in the first 5 years is high.
Good luck.

Isn’t that sort of what you’re saying about nurses who have a bursary though!?

This was a different poster Appuskidu, not the OP. There were a few crossed wires

Of course yanbu but unfortunately it won't get any better further down the line.

My experience as a newly qualified included being denied any holiday time during school hols as the more senior staff seem to get first pick, crap xmas off duty, never ever getting away on time but not ever getting paid for those hours (which will eventually accrue days worth of free labour), not getting time owed for training courses during particularly busy periods, the list goes on.

I should add I am actually not a nurse, I am a midwife, but I believe the issues are very similar within both fields. It really is crap but I just try and forget all that while in work and get on with the job (which I do love!)

To all intents and purposes it's the old enrolled nurse training.
Yes there is a scheme, but in our hospital it's unlikely you will get chosen. They fund so few.

So you’re saying he’s been lucky for all of his placements Pancake? How do you explain the fact that the other students on the placements, with the same mentor who haven’t had the same experience?

I know this was a few posts back but I wanted to comment on this.
I wonder if the fact that the poster's DS is a trainee male nurse and hence stands out amongst the cohort of females... also whether this has any impact on his ability to 'put himself out there' and 'speak up for himself''.

I have been a registered [university degree] nurse for 20 years and have seen where some male nurses can be pretty outspoken and confident in their training and then quickly move on up the ranks to management posts.... some do so undoubtedly due to their own hard work and motivation, however for others I have struggled to see any specific talent, training or knowledge which would promote them above their female counterparts apart from limitless confidence and self belief.

NAMALT but I have seen it in action and believe that there is sometimes still a sense within the health service that female nurses are the handmaidens and bum wipers and subservient to not only the male doctors but also now male nurses [management class].

I’m in year 2 and would have done it even if I hadn’t got the bursary.

As the PP have said about placements and why students can’t choose them is correct.

As well as what’s been said, it takes very careful organising to make sure the students are spread evenly. There’s 120 adult nurses in my cohort (I’m child field) and all on placement at the same time. If 80 of them wanted to do A+E it wouldn’t work.

Ask, placements which I thought I’d love, I hated. And vice versa.

Can I join this thread? I’m 48, and starting my adult nursing in uni in April. I’m lucky as I’m in Wales so fees are paid. As I have a degree already I get some maintenance loan plus £2200 bursary. I’ve got a very supportive DH but will still have to work.
I like to think I know what I’m taking on and am alternating between being so excited I can’t speak then also being terrified !

Also the new NMC standards are out next month and our lecturers are anticipating that the change will require students to learn injections IV as a part of their course. So watch this space for that one.

I love how the ‘half-sister’ bit is there.

SeaWitchly yes yes yes @ male nurses getting preferential treatment in the NHS. Its like they get gold stars and "well done you" just for showing up! The stamdards are set higher for the girls, and the dont get away with things the boys do!

Its not just by management either, its not uncommon for patients to assume that male HCAs are senior to me! And its also not umcommon for said male "experts" to not correct them.

If you have a male student or newly qualified nurse working with you, patients are much happier for them to practice new skills on them, and less likely to say "no I want someone who knows what theyre doing"

They really are working in a different environment to us, even though we're physically in the same place.

Also not uncommon for patients to direct their questions at the male nurse on ward rounds, and assume that the female registrar/consultant is just his handmaiden!

Why would you NOT be confident if everyones treating you like the cream of the crop?

SeaWitchly, it's a sad state of affairs but even in such a female dominated career as nursing, males are disproportionately promoted over females. This leads to a gender pay gap even in areas where women vastly outnumber men. There's quite a lot of research and statistics to back that up. And to an extent, I've also seen male students treated better and come across male matrons who made me question the sanity of the hiring panel. But of course that's more anecdotal.

That said, I'm definitely not saying that no male nurse deserves to go far. One male in my cohort is truly the most dedicated student I've ever come across and I have no doubt that if we go for the same jobs, I won't win. His application is going to be incredible as he dedicates pretty much all of his time to activities that enhance him as a nurse.

And even he has had some poor luck with mentors.

Sorry, that was a bit of an off topic rant

Back to the up in the air aspects of nurse training: I believe that the results in from the early batches of band 4 "train while you work" associates are not good in terms of patient safety and some have been demoted.

I do not have much faith in the system, its just upskilling hcas and not IMO comparable to the uni route.

I really wouldnt want MY kids to pick that route, put it that way, I would encourage them to do the old route where we know that progression isnt capped and its transferrable all over the world.

Yeah I’m MH not adult. I also got a bursary.

Training is very hard going, it’s a balancing act between placement, uni and assignments which leaves little free time. I imagine it would be hard as a young, single, childless person living with family but add in other responsibilities and it of course gets tougher. Placements are luck of the draw, but I think how your uni organises them (mine were crap, you would find out your placement a week before you started rather then the 4-6 weeks prior it was meant to be) and where you live (how many decent local placements are available). I’ve got friends who had 5 EMI ward placements in a row for example. Or who got sent away to a placement 60 miles away (they put you up but still, not ideal if you have kids at home).

However if you really want to be a nurse it’s worth it. You will have a job lined up in your third year when you’re still months from qualifying and there’s so many different opportunities for progression. If you have children you’ll need decent childcare, as placement shifts can be all hours (some placements will be understanding and offer flexibility as long as you get your hours in, others will not.)

I think after my course finishes id like to go live abroad. I don't have faith in the UK government and NHS and its really sad. Overworking nurses and other hcp will just cause emotional damage and burn them out. During a time where there is a staffing crisis in these areas putting barriers against qualifying is actually a detterent, its like they almost want it to fail.

Definitely do the traditional degree then otherwise you may have trouble getting registered abroad!

Even if you stay, IMO the alternativs routes are about training warriors not chiefs. I.e. junior nurses that stay junior. And while theres merit in staying "hands on" as it were, at some point you may want to plan for retirement etc and might actually need to climb the ranks!

I know they SAY it'll be "equivalent" if you do the degree level apprentiship, but I dont trust them, I think itll be more equivalent to a foundation degree, not a BSc.

Also nurse associates are not band 5s, even if theyre rotaed as such. Being on duty when the other "nurse" is a band 4 buts so much more work and pressure on the band 5s, so I really dont support it!

I only read pages 1 and 2 and felt the need to respond to this.

OP - you and your 9k are a tiny drop in the ocean of the complexity of providing healthcare education. Universities and placement areas are dealing with literally thousands of healthcare students, all of them are paying the same amount of money, some of them will have very specific needs (like disabilities or additional support needs, or family commitments), all of them will have areas that they would prefer to work. Why do you think that your preferences should outweigh anyone else's?

You seem to think that a student is an asset to a ward, this can be the case but it's also bloody hard work having students and can involve a hell of a lot of extra work.

If you want to be a nurse, you will work at it - you will put yourself out and accept that you are there to learn, not to be provided with a tailor made experience which just feeds into your preconceived idea about what you want to do. Have a look at Johari's window and think about how your own personal development could make you a better nurse.

Oh and the person who said that sometimes people did a course because the bursary was paid is absolutely right - obviously not all of them - but there are people who are very open about this.

Nurse associates and Nurse apprentices are different, for those getting them confused.

Nurse associates (or Assistant Practitioners in some trusts) are paid at band 4, and do a 2 year degree as opposed to 3. They are rostered as nurses, And will be the named nurse for a group of patients. In my experience, they are usually just as good as most band 5s. The only issue is registration with the NMC, which we suspect will change soon.

Nurse apprentices are doing a 4 year degree and will eventually be Band 5 upon qualifying. This is a great idea, but it doesn't mak a great deal of sense to have taken away funding for most nurses but then have extra funding for apprentices.

Personally, I wouldn't want any of my children to go into nursing. Too many nurses I know have too much stress for not enough money, And I imagine it will only get worse.

Only you can decide if its what you want. It is a very rewarding career, but also very difficult.

Though I am a bit that you are annoyed the NHS won't fund your degree when you admit wanting to work abroad instead. I was with you until that point.