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Original poster

Women working out of the home condem other women

307 replies

restofthetimes · 09/02/2018 07:40

....to caring for their children. For low pay. (Albeit very expensive childcare for the end user? ie a working couple one of whose wages possibly only just covers childcare fees.... leaving them with effectively one income again)

This is the reality. The number of men caring for the children hasn’t gone up as the number of women working out of the home has.

In an ideal world, would there be an equal number of sahds to sahms? Or should we force more men into paid childcare jobs. I don’t know the statistics, but it seems men just don’t want to work in that area. So women bear the brunt again.

It all seems weird .

OP posts:
LifeBeginsAtGin · 09/02/2018 09:45

1ndig0 you have sort of answered your own question:

'men reducing their hours or assuming more childcare responsibility.'

' No staff member can love a baby like it's mother. The bond and the instinct to anticipate the baby's needs will not exist.'

This can be said for men - the strongest bond is between a mother and her child, it's maternal instinct that even a father can not replicate.
So men are more likely to go out to work to provide for his wife and children because that is what he does best, whilst the woman cares for her off spring.

Lilyhatesjaz · 09/02/2018 09:46

Not read full thread but having worked in childcare for a number of years, I would say its a rewarding, interesting, enjoyable job not something you are condemned to do.
It is however under valued and underpaid.

Tarraleaha · 09/02/2018 09:52

I am always amazed how many parents moan about how expensive childcare is, when they actually pay less than the minimum wage for a childminder, and not much more for a nursery. They then keep moaning because they have to spend a couple of pounds for the school but that's a whole other tread.
Same parents are happy to pay double the rate for a cleaner! It makes no sense they look down at childcare workers when they are happy to give them their children for hours every day.

FinallyHere · 09/02/2018 09:58

And if the wage goes up why will others bother getting into £27k of debt to become qualified lawyers, accountants etc? We'll all apply to work in childcare because it is easier.

This cannot be true for everyone. If it came to it, and we were all required to do a contribution to society stint in childcare, I would absolutely be prepared to pay way more than £27k to get out of doing it.

As it happens, I am qualified (MSc./ MBA) and always chose to do homework because my mother would let me of doing the dishes if I said I had loads of homework to do, then chose subjects and industries which were very short of qualified people, which continues to excuse me from domestic work. I think of it as a choice from a range of options.

If people refused to accept jobs in childcare, the wages would rise.

FinallyHere · 09/02/2018 10:02

He charged £25 per hour to her £13 when really unspecific gardening is no more skilled than cleaning. It's just that it's traditionally "men's work" whereas cleaning and childcare are not.

I prefer to see this as charging what the market will stand. He set his charge and you agreed to pay it. So did she, what would your alternatives have been in each case?

FrancinePefko · 09/02/2018 10:04

My DH has v senior colleague who is clearly very bitter and resentful that I am a SAHM - passing really bitchy comments about his (DH's) "perfect home and perfect wife" and, recently, how much easier it was for him being "a facilitated man". I am sure she wants to make SAHMs illegal.

FrancinePefko · 09/02/2018 10:07

I don't think the outsourcing of child care is remotely comparable to the outsourcing of childcare. Paying a stranger to be there during your child's crucial early years is hardly the same as paying a stranger to mow your lawn.

NotReadyToMove · 09/02/2018 10:08

And if the wage goes up why will others bother getting into £27k of debt to become qualified lawyers, accountants etc? We'll all apply to work in childcare because it is easier.

Because peole dont choose a career just for the money so you will still have people becoming doctors and laywers or engineers because that’s what they love.

Because working in childcare isn’t easy, even less if you actually try to look after them properly, provide stimulating activities etc etc (there is a reason why people in childcare have a degree in Scandinavian countries)

The idea that you wouod only start working in childcare because you can’t do anything else and not because yo enjoy working with children is Confused and :(:(

crunchymint · 09/02/2018 10:08

Traditional mens work is paid more than traditional women's work. Hence the current dispute with ASDA where women workers have been paid far less than men doing jobs requiring comparable skills.

It used to annoy me where I worked that the cleaners were virtually all women and paid minimum wage, and the janitors were all male and paid much better. If anything the janitors job was easier. They did a bit of cleaning plus arranging tables and chairs, and locking and unlocking to let people into a building. Cleaners also had to lock and unlock and set alarms, just not let people into the building and had the heavier cleaning work to do.

FrancinePefko · 09/02/2018 10:09

Comparable to gardening

crunchymint · 09/02/2018 10:10

I have seen many nannies complain that the well off families they work for pay more per hour for cleaners and gardeners than for women to look after their children. Crazy priorities when you think about it.

NotReadyToMove · 09/02/2018 10:10

He charged £25 per hour to her £13 when really unspecific gardening is no more skilled than cleaning. It's just that it's traditionally "men's work" whereas cleaning and childcare are not.

There is some truth to it.
Most jobs normally considered as ‘men’s job’ are paid more. Just like men are paid more than women for the same job.
The idea that markets will not take the fact that men and women are not treated the same in our society is naive at best.

Abra1de · 09/02/2018 10:15

Round here dog walkers get more than childcare workers.

NotReadyToMove · 09/02/2018 10:15

My DH has v senior colleague who is clearly very bitter and resentful that I am a SAHM - passing really bitchy comments about his (DH's) "perfect home and perfect wife" and, recently, how much easier it was for him being "a facilitated man".

As far as I am concerned, she is expressing a FACT.
Men are facilitated by women.
It’s women who step up to look after the cds, take everything on their shoulders so they can do whatever is necessary to getbtheir promotions (inc for example for working late) have the house ticking whilst thye don't even have to think about what will be on the table for dinner (let alone plan the hols, deal wth the dcs, CM etc etc).
I suspect your DH saw her bitter. I doubt she was.

NotReadyToMove · 09/02/2018 10:17

Abra but then the U.K. is also the country where animal welfare protection was in place BEFORE the NSPCC etc...
So maybe it’s not that aurprising .

crunchymint · 09/02/2018 10:19

Yes it will be easier for him being a facilitated man.Does he go on about his perfect home life at work?

RolyRocks · 09/02/2018 10:26

The girls at my son's old nursery earned about £16k a year for an 8 til 6 day. They couldn't afford to send their own child to the nursery they work in.

At my DD's nursery, the staff get a substantial reduction for their own children and three members of staff do have their own there - much like teachers often get discounts if they work in a private school. Some childcare organisations do offer that but I agree, it would be great if all did. That, and I am saddened that there are no male nursery workers at my DD's place.
I did however, have a male midwife during both my pregnancies (but not deliveries)

RolyRocks · 09/02/2018 10:30

I am always amazed how many parents moan about how expensive childcare is, when they actually pay less than the minimum wage for a childminder, and not much more for a nursery. They then keep moaning because they have to spend a couple of pounds for the school but that's a whole other tread.
Same parents are happy to pay double the rate for a cleaner! It makes no sense they look down at childcare workers when they are happy to give them their children for hours every day.

I don't moan about the amount I pay as my childcare workers are amazing but it's probably down to the difference in hours. A cleaner doesn't work as many hours and therefore, it seems easier to swallow £150 per month than it is £1450 per month (that is how much I pay for my childcare; I don't have a cleaner.)

Eliza9917 · 09/02/2018 10:34

Rebeccaslicker Fri 09-Feb-18 08:05:35
Eliza - if you think you only work for money, you've not been doing the right job/s.

Sure, it's an important part of it. A very important part. But it's not the only reason!

If I came in to money and didn't need to work, I'd never work again. I'd find plenty of things to occupy myself with, that and I'm a lazy fucker.

I only go to work because I want to have enough money. Although my sister works p/t to teach the kids you should work etc, but then she doesn't have to pay all her wages to childcare, her & BIL & my mum split child care and the kids go to nursery with their free hours, might be every week day I think, for a couple of hours. And she condenses her hours in to 3 days a week.

I agree with teaching work ethic but I wouldn't go to work unless I took home an amount that made it worth it. If my wages were only covering childcare I would stay at home and be with my kids.

I'm lucky enough though that once kids come along for us I can work from home doing something I retrained in and go self employed in a new industry.

1ndig0 · 09/02/2018 10:46

Well my DH is a "facilitated man" with the multi-million enterprises etc, but what's the worst that can happen during his day at work? He takes his eye of the ball and maybe loses a lot of money. For a mum or childcare worker, they take their eye off the ball and the child could have a serious accident or worse. At least my DH knows that the money he makes bears no relation whatsoever to the importance of the actual role he's in. This is why he values my role as a SAHM. It's a shame that caring for children is so undervalued, seen as the preserve of dowdy, "unfulfilled" SAHMs or women who can't go anything better. As PP say, if done properly, raising children is one if the hardest and most rewarding jobs there is.

crunchymint · 09/02/2018 10:47

Yes pay levels are not according to how valuable an actual job is.

RolyRocks · 09/02/2018 10:53

I agree with teaching work ethic but I wouldn't go to work unless I took home an amount that made it worth it. If my wages were only covering childcare I would stay at home and be with my kids.

That's a bit like the grasshopper who didn't work during the summer and suffered in winter. My mother took that stance and sadly, my father died reasonably young. She was faced with 12 years to try to earn enough to get a decent-ist pension. This included working 2 jobs in areas that she was grossly underqualified for but her big gap in experience held her back. She still has a relatively small pension and often says she regrets not going back to work after we were in school.

If you won the lottery and didn't have to worry about retirement, then fair enough. Considering that that is an extremely rare occurrence though, surely you can see why some women choose to go back to work and spend 2 or 3 years paying more out than they get in?

creaturefeatures · 09/02/2018 11:04

The issue is that in most couples the woman earns less.

There is no reasonable justification for this given that women now perform better educationally. Basically we socialise girls to not be 'bossy', to be more people pleasing and not to be 'precocious'.

The media tells them to be more interested in how they look and how they please their man than in their brains, careers and goals.

Once they're married we ask the same women what they plan to do once they have children (but don't ask the father). All in all it adds up to a situation where women lack the confidence to go for a promotion, to ask for a major pay rise, to build and work a network for career moves.

So when it comes down to it men earn more than women even when there's no pay discrimination, so it makes financial sense for the women to be the SAHP.

Then add the fact that we discriminate against SAHDs. They're always shown as 'idiots' in the media that can't work out how to change a nappy. Baby groups are aimed at mothers. I could go on. Staying at home is made to seem like a very frowned upon choice.

Until all these things are solved we won't see any massive rise in SAHDs.

In all of the couples I know the mothers have either been full time SAHMs or work part time. None of the fathers have made any changes to their working patterns.

We'll be the only couple I know where DH will be a SAHD as I earn 5x his salary.

creaturefeatures · 09/02/2018 11:06

I also agree with a PP that it's an issue that care work is seen as low status.

In my opinion it's much, much more important than making some greedy fat cat shareholders even richer than they already are. That's capitalism for you...

creaturefeatures · 09/02/2018 11:07

"I don't get why everyone always presumes that the full cost of childcare always comes out of the woman's wages and the man's wages are spent on the 'important' things like the mortgage and bills. Why is this? Why is the woman working for 'no pay'? Why is it not that childcare costs X and the joint income of the parents is Y?"

^ @SusanBunch This is also a really bloody good point!