Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

'I don't shake women's hands'

846 replies

canary1 · 08/02/2018 21:55

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

OP posts:
ChesterBelloc · 08/02/2018 23:24

Assassinated, I didn't say women should be treated with more respect, simply that they often are.

And although my point was also a general one, I still say that even in this specific instance, the Muslim man's actions do not, at face value, mean that he viewed women as 'second class citizens': simply as 'different'.

This is not to say he wasn't socially awkward, or unintentionally insensitive; nor can we know exactly what feelings and motives were behind his actions. However, in the absence of such certainties, I think it behoves us as the dominant social culture (by which I mean generally Western, liberal, atheistic), to give those different from us the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. Good manners work both ways.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/02/2018 23:28

It is as @pallisers says, it is treating women as lesser.

DiegoMadonna · 08/02/2018 23:28

Who you touch, kiss, shake hands with, or whatever, is entirely your choice, for whatever reason, as it rightly should be.

BUT if you are making those decisions based on discrimination and/or ignorance, I am equally within my right to think less of you, tell my friends you're a bigot and/or idiot, and complain about your behaviour anonymously on internet forums!

Killdora · 08/02/2018 23:28

So you wouldn't be remotely bothered if he had ran and happily hugged a male colleague, right next to you in the same room, but recoiled at you tiddliewinkiewoo?

EBearhug · 08/02/2018 23:28

BARON even

Barren, even. Wink

We had a Muslim colleague who refused to shake hands with women, but it didn't particularly bother me, as most other Muslim colleagues seemed to think he was a dick about that among many other things. Them thinking he was a dick stopped me feeling guilty for thinking he was a dick, and then I could just ignore it.

I did think earlier this week that I could quite easily give up shaking hands, if they're all going to be pathetic weak handshakes. If you're going to shake my hand, please do it properly or not at all. Not at all is better than a hand that's basically just hanging there. I want a nice firm handshake or no handshake.

(And if you are my manager''s git manager, then coming within about 15m of me will be invading my body space, so no reason to come anywhere near, let alone shake my hand.)

Killdora · 08/02/2018 23:29

Assassinated, I didn't say women should be treated with more respect, simply that they often are

Snort.

Yeah those two women murdered a week by their partners, or those thousands being raped are so respected it's unreal.

DiegoMadonna · 08/02/2018 23:32

He is a muslim. A peaceful muslim who isn't ignorant but, whether some harpies disagree, has a belief - and who the hell are we to say he shouln't less we offend some female

So if a peaceful but racist doctor refuses to shake black peoples' hands, we should accept it? After all, who the hell are we to say he shouldn't lest we offend some black person...ppft! He saves lives! Even black peoples' lives!

SmilingButClueless · 08/02/2018 23:33

EBearhug in complete agreement with you on handshakes. Do you think we could start a movement for a polite bow or gracious wave?

VenusOfWillendorf · 08/02/2018 23:33

This created a lot of controversy in a village near where I live in Switzerland. Usually here, the kids shake hands with each teacher before and after class. Two Muslim boys refused to shake hands with female teachers on Religious grounds. Eventually the school decided they should not shake hands with any teacher in the interests of equality, but locally government was not happy with that decision. They ruled that “the public interest with respect to equality between men and women and the integration of foreigners significantly outweighs the freedom of religion.”
The boys had to either shake hands with all teachers as per the custom, or be fined and possibly be refused citizenship

Muslim students must shake teacher's hand - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36382596

Feedme1 · 08/02/2018 23:33

Lol I love when people start justifying sexism when it’s dressed up under religion. You realise he can choose what he believes, you can’t choose whether you have a vagina.
As Ricky Gervais says:
If you don’t criticise bigotry such as homophobia and misogyny, in religion, in fear of being labelled a bigot, you’re a bigot.

Messyone · 08/02/2018 23:33

In a lot of cultures men and women don't interact in any physical way (unless they are related or married). Not shaking the hands of a member of the opp sex is seen as a sign of respect for the person.

As you are upset OP you should confront him and tell him that not everyone is aware of Muslim practices. Also it seemed sexist to you that he didn't shake your hand and that in the future if he was in mixed company he should not shake anyone's hands. He should get the message after this.

tiddliewinkiewoo · 08/02/2018 23:36

poster Killdora Thu 08-Feb-18 23:28:09
So you wouldn't be remotely bothered if he had ran and happily hugged a male colleague, right next to you in the same room, but recoiled at you tiddliewinkiewoo?

I can honestly answer that as yes, definitely Killdora - because I absolutely respect his faith, whether I agree or not. That man saves lives daily, had the decency to try and explain, albeit in a jokey way, that it wasn't ok to hug me. Is he a bad person because of that? Hell no, lets look at other religions and what we don't agree with.

I see the hypocrisy daily of the likes of people on this thread happily taking treatment from medical professionals who save their families lives daily!

RaindropsAndSparkles · 08/02/2018 23:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

crazycatgal · 08/02/2018 23:42

Why is sexism not treated the same as being racist, homophobic etc. If someone refused to shake the hand of someone because they were black or gay there would be outrage - whether it was due to religion or not.

pallisers · 08/02/2018 23:43

Does saving lives daily get you a special exemption or would you feel the same if the man was on the dole tiddlie? (dh is a medic and has been known to save the odd life and we still expect him to behave to certain standards).

It is really simple to me. If your religion forbids you touching women then in a professional or public setting you don't touch anyone - male or female. Then the issue is yours and not the woman's. It is the respectful, polite, non-showy thing to do. "sorry I don't shake hands/hug/kiss/have dinner on my own with colleagues" job done.

tiddliewinkiewoo · 08/02/2018 23:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

pallisers · 08/02/2018 23:45

Anyway with self-id coming in, it would be safer to refuse to shake anyone's hand just in case :)

LaurieMarlow · 08/02/2018 23:45

I absolutely do not accept that sexism should be tolerated because it's dressed up as religion.

If your religious beliefs are misogynist you need to be called on them.

crazycatgal · 08/02/2018 23:46

@tiddliewinkiewoo There's legislation in place in regards to sex discrimination too.

LaurieMarlow · 08/02/2018 23:47

You know what? to even ask that question and to try and relate colour shows what an absolute numb skull you are.

I couldn't disagree more. Explain to me exactly why that isn't a totally apt comparison.

virtualreality · 08/02/2018 23:47

In some people's eyes, and religion often masks it, women are the devil incarnate.

I so agree that if refusal to shake hands was based on race there would be uproar, but sure hey it's only women we are talking about here right.

tiddliewinkiewoo · 08/02/2018 23:51

I'm not going to try and 'argue' anymore and I respect everyone's opinion and have just tried to give mine, working with guys and girls whose religion has rarely come into effect - I can only go off my experience which was a man whose religion didn't allow him to hug me. I respected that, and we went back to having a laugh and carry on meeting up.

It had nothing to do with me being a woman, it was his belief. Should I change that belief? I'm not so arrogant to think I should - how would Christians feel if Muslims said yeah but?

lt's so sad - we alienate people because of their religion when in reality, IME, they're just people like you and me and the extremists win.

Nannite x

Original poster
canary1 · 08/02/2018 23:51

DiegoMaradonna great analogies. Sexism cannot be accepted just because lots of people agree with it (as part of religion or any belief system). There would still be slavery FFS Tiddles, if widely held beliefs and behaviours were not called up at some point, when they are blatantly discriminatory.

OP posts:
pallisers · 08/02/2018 23:53

It had nothing to do with me being a woman, it was his belief.

Huh? If it had nothing to do with you being a woman and he wouldn't hug anyone, then why are you even talking about this incident?

Mailawaymailawaymailaway · 08/02/2018 23:59

I only found out recently about the Jewish handshaking no-no. I was a bit nonplussed at how this hadn't come up in the past 15 years for me, but apparently it is a thing.

I suppose I can understand not kissing - which seems to be a thing in some social circles in the UK, not just on the Continent - but handshakes are hardly affectionate. With some men, a business handshake is an attempt to squeeze your hand off to prove how strong and superior they are.

Life was simpler when I believed you shook hands with everyone at the start and end of a meeting, and you all swapped business cards at the start whilst you all remembered to do so. It's not just handshakes - or lack of handshakes - you have to watch out for. Apparently there is etiquette around business cards based on what country your guests are from. You don't assume British rules apply, you are meant to follow local customs.