'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

@haffiana
You haven’t answered the question. Funnily enough I don’t care one way or the other what religion you are, but you need to be able to defend a statement

I do not understand the question? I have never read the Koran, and I believe you if it doesn't say you cannot shake hands with the opposite sex. I said it was to do with modesty and not religion.

We had an Ofsted Inspector who wouldn't shake anyone's hand. I presume it was for religious reasons that he couldnt/didn't want to shake women's hands, but it was more appropriate not to shake anyone's hands.

That's a good solution imo.

And whilst he does have the freedom to decide who to shake hands with? I also have the freedom to decide that behaviour like this is shitty, sexist and inappropriate.

I had a job applicant once who I was interviewing. He sent an email ahead explaining that he'd prefer not to shake hands with the panel as his religion discourages physical contact between unrelated people of the opposite sex. He was concerned that we would see this as disrespectful. When he came he was lovely, didn't shake hands with male colleagues either and he happened to be the best candidate so got the job. Done like that, it was completely fine. The way it was done with OP, terrible manners. So it's not religion that's the proble,, it's how you do it and just common curtesy and respect on both sides.

"I’d be happy for anyone not to shake my hand for any reason. I wouldn’t be happy if someone shook my colleagues’ hands and refused to shake mine. Because that is discrimination."

That, Clueless, is a completely contradictory statement though. You're happy for anyone to refuse to shake your hand for any reason... except if that reason is that you're female

Treating people differently is not the same as treating some people worse; it's quite sad that feminism seems to insist on being treated 'like a man' in the name of equality. Men and women are different; some may think that the business world should be sex-blind, but others may disagree. I repeat, treating women differently is NOT inherently, necessarily sexist.

canary1 Thu 08-Feb-18 22:55:24
Tiddle whatever, how dare you call me ignorant because I am calling misogyny what it is.

I dare. It's NOT misogyny - I don't agree with it myself but I absolutely agree that we should respect each other's beliefs - and my colleague was NOT being offensive he was religious and to hug me would have gone against his religion.

Nothing to do with women being suppressed in Islam, just a fundamental religious belief he holds. And I would never be so arrogant to try and argue against that.

Lots of posters are trying to justify the man's behaviour with the rationale 'it's his belief so it's ok'. But how does just having a belief make something right? Answer: It doesn't.

I’m always glad when a man doesn’t try to shake my hand it’s awkward touching people. Hugging is far worse. I have clients who do that cheek kissing thing on me and it makes me want to die.

Also I like the thought of my husband not shaking hands with other women so I’d totally respect his decision.

I wish I had an acceptable excuse to say I don’t shake people’s hands or hug them... maybe I’ll tell them I’m a germaphobe or something lol

Should have been all handshakes or none. The women were humiliated. That is the only truth from this.

I've worked with female Muslims who wouldn't shake men's hands, who wore hijab, modest dress but were probably more radfem than you.

The fuck they were.

Tiddle it is you promoting sexism and saying it is ok. I disagree, just as I am abhorred with homophobia, racism .... it is you promoting discrimination. How can you talk of equal respect when the belief concerned is that women are inferior? Genuine question. But I won't bother to read the answer because it will just further justification of discriminatory behaviour.

So it’s ok for a b&b owner not to allow gays to stay for their Christian reasons

Where was it okay? Didn't the b&b owners lose their case?

I dare. It's NOT misogyny - I don't agree with it myself but I absolutely agree that we should respect each other's beliefs - and my colleague was NOT being offensive he was religious and to hug me would have gone against his religion

But how would you have felt if he had ran up and hugged a male colleague next to you in joy, before recoiling away at the thought that you were going to hug him.

Really, you wouldn't be a little bit ?

No, I’m fine for people not to shake my hand because I’m female. But that means in a mixed group in a workplace situation I would not expect the men’s hands to be shaken either.

Because my gender is irrelevant in my workplace.

I’d have no issues at all with this type of differentiation in a personal or social situation, by the way (where it is my choice whether or not to accept that as part of an ongoing social relationship). But in a workplace people should be treated equally.

So tiddle it is the responsibility of an individual, the OP in this case, to guess whether it is acceptable or not. How ridiculous he was being rude and since he is in the minority in not shaking hands, I say that as it is normal part of our culture as kissing is a normal part of French culture, he is in the wrong and very rude.

it's quite sad that feminism seems to insist on being treated 'like a man' in the name of equality. Men and women are different; some may think that the business world should be sex-blind, but others may disagree. I repeat, treating women differently is NOT inherently, necessarily sexist.

But this is nothing to do with being treated "like a man". Just not like a second class citizen.

It's essentially assuming you shouldn't touch him purely because you have a vagina. So he might have sex with you. So he has to be chaste, respect his wife and never touch you, just in case it proves too much of a temptation? Is that it?

So you are no longer a colleague or a friend, you are reduced to a potential sex partner. But for some reason, the thought he might have sex with any of the men never crosses his or his wife's mind...only the woman is the evil temptress.

Interesting.

As for the bb owners.

there's a difference between a business and bodily integrity...

However, that doesn't make this behaviour less sexist. Even if his actions are perfectly benign, justified and maybe even necessary in his opinion.

@Iwillstartagainonmonday
I did say no! Because it’s illegal

My husband and I had a quite conservative/strict Muslim friend at work and I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have shaken hands with women either. However he was one of the friendliest and most generous people I’ve ever worked with. He always greeted me by name and asked how I was in passing, he often insisted on buying both of us lunch. He wanted to buy my husband lunch at McDonald’s but wasn’t allowed to buy a burger as they’re not Halal, so he’d buy my husband a Filet o’ Fish instead! He would approach me for advice on workplace issues when he was having trouble with our boss and so on. So I do think it’s possible to have utmost respect for someone without going against your religious beliefs.

Ironically I’d say I was closer to this man and received more respect from him than any other male colleagues that would shake hands with me just as a formality but not actually listen to or respect anything I had to say in meetings!

Huntinginthedark, I don't know how on earth you managed to infer that from what I posted, did you actually read it properly? It has nothing to do with religion or gay rights rights, it's about one individual being able to choose who they do or don't have physical contact with for whatever fucking bullshit reason they want. The line is very, very easily drawn, right there, with the physical contact you have dismissed as irrelevant. Whether or not the guy is also a misogynist arsehole is beside the point.
I'll give you another comparison. A white woman says she doesn't want to kiss a black man, because she might catch something. Is she a nasty racist cow? Undoubtedly. Is he allowed to insist that she kisses him anyway? No, he isn't. Her reasons are shit and bigoted and make her an awful person, but she still gets to decide who she kisses.

If your religion requires you to discriminate in such a way that you are able to perform basic social niceties, your religion is wrong IMHO

But that's hilariously bollocks. Basic social niceties vary hugely throughout the world and different cultures. It is surely obvious that some religious customs and local social niceties might sometimes clash. You might as well say that the societal nicety is wrong if not everybody can manage it.

Honestly, I wouldn't be offended by this, but I have come across it before, I can see it might be a bit shocking if it was your first time experiencing it. I don't think it is about thinking women are lesser, actually, because for couples who follow this, the same rule exists for the women - they do not touch males other than their husband and children. It is nothing to do with hierarchy and only to do with heteronormative assumptions - which may well be a different issue to be offended by, actually, but not really the point brought up.

Of course there are sexist hierarchical aspects to many religions including Islam, but honestly, this particular belief is not based on any hierarchy.

If I were in Pakistan I would respect the prevailing culture. If I were in Saudi I would respect the prevailing culture. If I were in Tibet I would respect the prevailing culture.

If others are in the UK i think it follows they should respect the prevailing culture. Because that is what is respectful and polite.

When we lived in London and I used to walk along a road en-route to a mosque sometimes some Muslim men woukd walk away from it towards me. Usually, if they were three abreast they would not break step to allow me to pass on the pavement. They preferred me to step into the road. For something else to hapoen I had to stand still in front ofthem and then the woukd silently break to let me pass.

I think that had mire to do with sexist bad behaviour and a culture of mysogyny than with their religion. I met once with their Imam and he agreed.

Amadiyah. Love for all, hatred for none. The sexist conduct really didn't seem so.

It's awfully sad.

It's appalling behaviour and shouldn't be tolerated.

If he had an issue with shaking hands for any reason at all then he should apply that to both men and women. What he did was immensely disrespectful to the OP.

it's quite sad that feminism seems to insist on being treated 'like a man' in the name of equality

No. It insists on women being treated as equal.